SUBJECT: Re:dyspraxia and I.Q. Date: 95-07-28 21:09:17 EDT
From: Ratatat
Kris,
My daughter too is in a private school, that has no public funding. However, the district must make available all of its services to the taxpayers in the district regardless where they attend school. The person who observed my daughter had a master's level degree in special education, and some knowledge of the school - and a lot of knowledge about norms of classroom behavior. She was inobtrusive in her observations and took great notes. Her insights were a very helpful piece of the puzzle.
At one point, later, I requested to be allowed to observe my daughter's class - though not for a whole day, and we sort of colored it as me going in to be a teacher's helper. Thank God the school cooperated this one time (mostly they are a pain in the you-know-what).
I think had they refused my request I would have made a bit of a stink. Can you speak directly to the Chairman of the Education Committee of the Board of Trustees?
However, is this all mute now? Is your child going to a different school?
Or just a different grade? I am beginning to get a little confused, and I
apologize! <grin>
SUBJECT: Re:dyspraxia and I.Q. Date: 95-07-30 09:19:28 EDT
From: PeterCB55
Dear Kris,
Hopefully, things will smooth out a little and your experiences with the new school and staff may be somewhat more productive than those you have encountered in the past as regards your son's educational experience.
However, if this does not prove to be the case in the coming fall, you might want to consider an alternative strategy. The rationale is that, if in the face of your best efforts the school is unable to formulate a plan that makes sense, or impart to you the sense that they are willing to get to "know" your child and formulate an education plan that is appropriate, an advocate may be helpful in negotiating specific modifications. The idea (only if needed or necessary) is to consider taking all of the reports, findings, charts, graphs, and documentation and any other related stuff, and find yourself a consultant to sift through it and help you formulate a game plan and then work with you in meetings with school staff to help represent your child's interests. Sometimes, this person can take the form of a knowledgable speech language specialist, an educational specialist who consults privately, a child psychologist or other similarly qualified individuals, who can help focus the educational planning effort on essentials and mediate questions and concerns, especially in situations where there are widely differing views of a child's abilities. Some states have organizations that specialize in this type of activity as a service to families with learning and educational disabilities. For example, in Minnesota, an organization called PACER, specializes in providing this and other types of support to families of children with various types of disabilities. There are, of course, other types of activities available to you, that you may know of. However, in some instances this kind of approach, can help keep things moving forward, when a less formal approach isn't getting you expected results with a given school or district.
Perhaps others can add to this, regarding options that fit in between, direct parent negotiated IEP's and the initiation of "due" process hearings with the district. Are there other advocacy organizations that provide these kinds of supports that you know of?
EARLIER MESSAGES HAVE BEEN ARCHIVED INTO THE SPECIAL EDUCAION LIBRARY FOR
YOUR USE.
SUBJECT: Re:dyspraxia and I.Q. Date: 95-08-11 22:44:47 EDT
From: STSmall
I am the parent of a nine year old apraxic son. Over the last two years I have explored many therapy leads and tried to become knowledgeable. My favorite advice to parents is YOU NEED TO BE THE EXPERT ON YOUR CHILD. You have to find what works for your child. Recently, i had a chance to discuss Dyspraxia/Apraxia with Patricia Walbarger, she stated that many OT's felt that most apraxic children were SENSORY DEFENSIVE! She has recently modified the brushing technique to include brushing with an EZ scrub 160, joint compresion and a "sensory diet" (no this does refer to eating) under the supervision of a properly trained OT. We have successfully followed this and found it EXTREMELY beneficial. As to IQ my son has scored everywhere from 98 to 117 with every tester stating they did not feel his IQ was that low.
Apraxic children are not that easy to test, please choose your testor
carefully. Another therapy we found successful was an Outdoor Challage
Program designed for LD children, there was a straight line correlation
between our son's learning to take risks outdoors and working in a group to
find solutions and his willingness to take risks with his speech and
reading.
SUBJECT: New Name for Folder Date: 95-08-13 16:26:59 EDT
From: Ratatat
The name of this folder was changed from IQ Scores and Disabilities to allow
for a broader subject area to accommo Date discussion.
SUBJECT: Re:RE:IQ scores
and disabilities Date: 95-08-19 22:47:40 EDT
From: Mimpma
Be assertive and let your school know that your child is eligible for assistance. If the behaviors related to ADHD are interfering with her achievement, then assistance in math, readingand writing would be appropriate under 504. I work in a school as a psychoogist and just wrote a 504 plan for a child who did not qualify but was not cuttingit in the classroom. She recieves the same services that her learning disabled classmates do, Your district KNOWS this is legal and is probably holding its breath hoping that parents don't get saavy enough to push this.
SUBJECT: Re:dyspraxia and I.Q. Date: 95-08-19 23:18:40 EDT
From: Mimpma
The idea here is to somehow embed the letters in your child's memory . Information is taken inthrough the five senses. You indicated that the phonics worked. He may be one who needs to hear it to remember it. You might also try writing the letters in sand, salt, shaving cream, whip cream, etc. in order to reach him tactilly. Also, after you write, have him write, saying the letter as he writes it. Another idea is to use molding clay to form the letters. You are right. "Reading" to you is a pre-reading skill. You want to surround him with words, print and language. Label objects in your house. Tell crative stories to eachother using a favorite fictional character (my 3 year old is Ian the fabulous flying boy!). You will continue to instill a love of literature while making the "lesson" fun.
The Bayley Scales should not be used to give an IQ score, although it
frequently is! It is my experience that it is not a good test for kids with
motor and language impairments. You should maybe look into The Mullen Scales
or the HELP checklist. Most "cognitive" tests for young children really only
test motor and language skills so, if you already know that these are delayed
they give very little information about cognitive skills.
SUBJECT: SE
Certification Date: 95-08-30 13:41:28 EDT
From: PBick 7916
Can anyone define for me the term Severe Discrepancy? The district uses a matrix to determine whether or not a student exhibits a "severe discrepancy" based on standardized scores. An IQ Full Scale is compared to SS's on a WJ-R, (or whatever). I have no idea who cooks the numbers, the state DOE will not own up to it. The Fed Regs mention the term but do not define it. Anyone have experience in challenging the use of this questionable table? I believe it to be in violation of the IDEA - is there an opinion out there?
"Can anyone define for me the term Severe Discrepancy?"
Each state decides that for themselves.
"An IQ Full Scale is compared to SS's on a WJ-R, (or whatever)."
Yes, that's how it works. Some states say the student's performance has to be two SS's below; others say 1 1/2. Some states use a sliding scale, requiring a smaller discrepancy in younger students and a wider one in older ones. The goal of this approach is to avoid labeling students LD when they're doing the best they can and just aren't very bright. Another advantage is that gifted-but-LD students are less likely to be denied services, since their performance is compared to their intellectual potential and not just their grade placement.
"The Fed Regs mention the term but do not define it. "
That's right. They specifically leave it up to each state. That leaves some parents in a ludicrous situation: their child live in (say) Missouri, and receives LD services. Everyone in the Missouri school says the child has an obvious learning disability, and they all work hard to help him.
the child moves to (say) California-or New York-and is no longer eligible! It happens all the time.
"Anyone have experience in challenging the use of this questionable table? I believe it to be in violation of the IDEA - is there an opinion out there?"
Those tables are not in any way in violation of IDEA and are used across the country in one way or another. There may be other ways to challenge, though.
We are undergoing some BIG changes in our system. I would love to hear some
input from anyone interested on the following topics-
1. What do you consider to be the bare bones minimum tests to be given to determine eligibility. (We used to have a lot of latitude, but are being pared down to a very minimal battery, with not additional testing allowed)
2. How is eligibility determined once the testing is done? Who gets a vote?
Thanks, I am interested to know how the rest of the world does it.
SUBJECT:
StanBinet/Accurate? Date: 95-09-09 10:22:15 EDT
From: MindB34329
My son, just turned 5, has been receiving services through the county for the past 2 1/2 years. Brief summary: moved to rural Japan when he was 4 weeks old. Lived in a dual language situation. I spoke English. Everyone else spoke Japanese. His two older brothers spoke both. My youngest son ran chronic fevers, utilized the Japanese medical system, but was not diagnosed with ear problems until his was almost 2. Both ear drums were almost completely hardened at that time. Received tubes and now hears fine. Expressive speech is a problem coupled with a fear of new environments. This past year he was re-evaluated and was barely eligible for speech assistance in kindergarten. Problem: Stanford Binet composite score rate at 80 + - 5. I, as well as all the other evaluators present at the IEP meeting except the psych evaluator, feel this is an erroneous, inaccurate score. I was not present when he had his psych eval, I was present for all other testing. Additionally, my son was sick the day they tested, was congested and generally not himself. My husband did not realize the impact and took him anyway. My son reads some words, spells some from memory, counts, learns concepts easily, is imaginative, but has difficulty answering WH questions. During the past year we have seen a tremendous increase in verbalizations and he is now reporting past events. Previously, he seemed to be caught up in his own imagination. I think he did that because for so long he couldn't hear what was going on around him. Now he is finally letting us know what he did in school etc and is a very happy, expressive, child.. My concern is in releasing an IQ score, inaccurate at best, to the local school system.
The IQ score could not possibly reflect my son's intelligence and I see no benefit in releasing the score to yet another group of professionals. No, I am not in denial. His preschool teachers (he attended a 5 morning a week Pre-K class) feel he is age appropriate. I have requested that the psych file carrying the Stanford Binet, not be released to the elementary school. All other evaluations can go. The files document his struggles with language. The minutes of the meeting carry the Stanford Binet score. The county agency is giving me a hard time and have said they will hold back the pysch file, but the minutes must go unaltered. I don't want the Stanford Binet score to be released. I requested that they retest him, but have been told it would not be an accurate score. That it would be compromised because he was tested in January. I don't want my child to be stigmatized by having this score carried on his school records. I want him to get a fresh start. If problems surface later, of course we will approach them then. My husband and I are well educated and responsive parents. I am serious when I say that this score can not be reflecting his IQ accurately.
Does anyone have any information regarding the accuracy of Stanford Binet scores in reference to children who have speech/expressive delays or information regarding the rights of parents and children in reference to their files? Finally, how many children take their Stanford Binet scores to kindergarten anyway? I doubt very many do!
Any help will be greatly appreciated. Thanks!
SUBJECT: Re:Assessment
batteries Date: 95-09-09 13:50:06 EDT
From: SusanS29
"1. What do you consider to be the bare bones minimum tests to be given to determine eligibility. (We used to have a lot of latitude, but are being pared down to a very minimal battery, with not additional testing allowed)"
One option is to have him tested privately (tell them you will be doing this). If you get substantially different results (which seems at least possible) you can then petition the school district to reimburse you for it.
I suggest you get advice from an advocate before proceeding on this plan so you do everything in the right order and are eligible for reimbursement if it turns out this way.
Even if your chance of getting reimbursed is small I suggest you have him retested using the WISC (they can't redo the Stanford; it's too soon). Yes, people often take those test scores seriously.
Given a child with "speech/language" dealys, the overall composite score would likely not be of much help to anyone, because, like any average score, it is an average or the specific subtest scores, ignoring the profile itself. What might be of interest to someone who knew how to interpret it, would be the individual subtests scores that reflect various areas of cognitive skill (e.g., abstract reasoning, verbal reasoning, visual recall, and so on) However, rather than forward the report with the concerns you present, I might suggest you consider obtaining a second opinion, that incorperates previous data and reexamines your child's skills, in terms of a broader context of cognitive skills (e.g., not just using measures the load heavily on language skills in their determination of overall cognitive ability). Such a second opinion should also account for the expected role of language inyour child's performance if any, on measures of cognitive ability and academic achievement. For example, other measures that are less language "heavy", such as the Kaufman Assessment Battery for Children, or the Wechsler Preschool and Primary Scales of Intelligence (although with this one your focus should be more on the visual-spatial skills summarized by the Performance subtests), as a point of reference for your question about overal cognitive skill. Generally speaking, measures that require lots of langauge processing and/or expression will undersestimate actual broad cognitive ability among children with language delays or deficits. Perhaps others can add their thoughts regarding measures that might be of more value.
"Given a child with "speech/language" dealys, the overall composite score would likely not be of much help to anyone..."
YES. Good point Peter!
I agree with you, Peter. When known deficits are present I much prefer to see the Weschler used, because it will give separate scores that can give clues about the child's possible specific strengths and weaknesses. I have seen that information buried within the Stanford-Binet, and I have seen the S-B give an artifically-low estimate of potential in some of these children.
At the same time I don't want to offer false hope because most of the time there's very little difference between scores on the S-B or on a Weschler, Kaufmann, etc.
The younger the child the more caution should be used in accepting any test score as Gospel, which is also true when there's a major area of difficulty (in this case language). Put those two factors together (age and area of weakness) -- and perhaps test scores should be used as a suggestion for current intervention, with testing repeated in a couple of years.
I don't believe that it (a set standard of tests for assessment) is legal either. (Especially the minimal battery currently being suggested) Anything specific to back this opinion up. We are being squeezed pretty hard.
SUBJECT:
SusanS29/PeterCB55 Date: 95-09-12 21:56:11 EDT
From: MindB34329
Thank you very much for responding. I will definitely inquire as to why the Weschler scale was not used, particularly in light of the fact that my son has language difficulties. Just as a matter of reference, I find it quite interesting that one of my older sons, who is participating in the "gifted" program at his school, has never had a Stanford Binet test. I wonder, especially since my kindergartner only qualified for speech therapy, why they would press for the Stanford Binet to become a permanent part of his record?
I am sure the chapter is just beginning to unfold. As much as I disagree
with the psych eval, I am very happy that there is a system in place in my
state that works with toddlers to bring them up to speed - - - before they
enter the public school system. It is a shame that more intervention is not
accomplished. After all, it is truly a delight to watch each child grow and
I hope I didn't overstate anything... there's nothing wrong with the Stanford-Binet. It's different from the WISC but has its own strengths and sometimes really is an appropriate choice.
What you should be appealing for, I think, is a retest with, say, the WISC...
You have rights. You should find out what the appeals process is in your
school district, and follow it. While that process is going on, insist that
no disputed results be placed in his file.
SUBJECT: To DaveKri Date: 95-09-14 17:37:22 EDT
From: BurtonSD
Check you rights. If your child has been diagnosed with ADD, this is, indeed
a handicapping condition. In Texas, it is possible to have your physician
fill out an Other Health Impaired Eligibility Form if your child's condition
interferes with education. If that is not possible, check out ADD as a "504"
disability-all children with conditions must be brought to a 504
Committee's attention; this is regular education, not special education and
includes children who were assessed but did not qualify for services. It may
be called "At Risk" or some other name, but it DOES exist! It's federal
law.
SUBJECT: ADD Testing Date: 95-09-21 23:43:25 EDT
From: JTRANDALL
I am having my daughter tested for special ed at the school. The neurologist
I take my boys to for ADD/ADHD wants to wait for the school results before
testing my daughter himself. I asked the school to test my daughter for
ADD/ADHD as well as LD. They said they do not test for ADD/ADHD that I would
have to have this done by my doctor. Is this correct?
read over the ADD folders that are before this one. However, the school is supposed to provide a multi-discplinary team and they are supposed to have a member on the team that is knowledgable of ADD. There is a published DSM-IV(I think?) plan that is part of section 504 that lists criteria as to what constitutes an ADD disorder.
I would suggest though, that it would be better to first have a private evaluation that reflects a diagnosis of ADD and try to use that. I am not trusting of a school district making an evaluation for a disorder that is correct and developing a 504 plan. It has always worked far better for me at least to get an independant evaluation and develop a plan before tackling the school.
"I am having my daughter tested for special ed at the school. The neurologist I take my boys to for ADD/ADHD wants to wait for the school results before testing my daughter himself. I asked the school to test my daughter for ADD/ADHD as well as LD. They said they do not test for ADD/ADHD that I would have to have this done by my doctor. Is this correct?"
Although the school may not test for ADD, some of the same tests are used, so
it makes sense to get the results from school first to avoid duplication of
"read over the ADD folders that are before this one. However, the school is supposed to provide a multi-discplinary team and they are supposed to have a member on the team that is knowledgable of ADD. There is a published DSM-IV(I think?) plan that is part of section 504 that lists criteria as to what constitutes an ADD disorder."
I think you have all these sources a little tangled. The school is not required to test for ADD, but when they have a valid diagnosis must provide services under either an IEP or a 504 plan. DSM stands for Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. It is published by the American Psychiatric ASsociation and has nothing to do with either IEPs or 504's.
Schools do have to make appropriate accomodations for a child with ADD, but
different districts accept different forms of documentation for the
diagnosis. Some will accept only a physician's statement. Others will accept
I believe the National Association of School Psychologists has recently drafted some kind of position paper allowing school psychs to diagnose ADD. Don't know any details.
I personally believe that a complete evaluation should be done before a child is medicated for ADD to get a true picture; however, I have seen many instances where a child performed poorly on certain parts of the evaluation because of ADD problems and was then found ineligible based on those scores.
The reality of it is (at least in some cases) you may be better off finding
the ADD first, treating it, and then getting the rest of the evaluation.
SUBJECT:
testing 1st graders Date: 96-04-16 14:10:55 EDT
From: MissJones
I'm a grade 1 special education teacher in Massachusetts and I'm looking to see what assessments other teachers are using to identify and diagnose disabilities in first graders. Our school currently gives the WIAT to measure achievement but we're on our own when it comes to diagnostic testing. I'd be interested in hearing what others are using as well as comments or suggestions.
The Wiat gives a very narrow range of items for a first grader, as does the
WJTA: R. However, the WJTA: R tests a wider range of skills. However, with
any student you need to develop an assessment plan. The Brigance Comprehensive Inventory of Basic Skills (Green) is a good criterion referenced in all academic areas. Other standardized tests include the Tests of Early Reading Ability (TERA) and the Test of Early Math Ability (TEMA).
Be sure to save writing samples. If you're looking for LD, be sure to
include a language assessment to determine vocabulary, memory, comprehension
and language formulation skills.
SUBJECT: L.D. & Law School Admission Date: 96-05-04 21:33:42 EDT
From: AVrondissi
SUBJECT: Date: 96-05-04 20:32:57 EDT
From: AVrondissi
Does anyone have any information about L.D. and applying to law school? After being diagnosed with L.D. in June, 1995, I was able to take the LSAT with accomodation. I have taken it twice since being diagnosed; the first time I scored 145 and the second ocassion I scored 146. Before I forget, let me add that I have a 3.33 GPA and I plan to graduate with a 3.50 GPA by this summer. Anyway, although my LSAT scores are far from great (40%), I thought that given a solid GPA, which I achieved before being diagnosed with L.D., and coupled with the fact that I'm a mature student with relevant work experience, I would try to apply to a few schools. Consequently, I applied to 9 law schools which range in degree of competitiveness. Unfortunatly, I have been rejected by 6 so far, and I'm not anticipating that the remaing law schools are going to be the bearers of good news, either. What's more dissapointing is that a number of schools that I had applied to had "Special Admission Program's" (SAP's); furthermore, most of the institutions that featured SAP's advertised that they try to aggresivley recruit people that are underrepresented in the legal profession.
I decided to call one institution that rejected me and ascertain what factors led to their decision not to admit me. Futhermore, the person who I spoke to was the Director of Admission's at this institution and when I asked why I didn't qualify for admissions under the SAP the response was: "We expect that with the extended time you received on LSAT, you should have scored higher. The accomodation is supposed to bring L.D. students up to par with everyone else. Therefore, our SAP program does not apply to people who are L.D.." Needless to say, I don't think that I want to attend the school anyway. Therefore, I'm left with the impression that the LSAT scor can determine whether one gains admittance to law school or not. I am resigned to the fact that I will probably have to take this beastly exam again and improve my score, if I want to improve my chance of gaining admittance to an ABA approved law school.
Disappointed, does anyone have any other suggestions? Doesn't hard work and a decent GPA count for anything anymore?
Please E-mail, as I would love to read your suggestions, if anyone has any.
I'm Mom of autistic children. Looking for a place I can find copies of tests that will be used to evaluated my children. Stanford Benet, WSSPI, etc. Can I find these anywhere? Please e-mail. Brickposse@aol.com.
The distribution of those tests are tightly controlled because if they got into the hands of the general public they would no longer be valid.
You will have to prove to the publishers that you are certified to administer the tests before you'll be able to get them.
It has to be this way or they would be completely useless.
SUBJECT: Funds for
Testing Date: 96-05-22 20:58:10 EDT
From: ShawLu
I could use some advice and direction.
My nephew's third grade teacher recommended that he be tested for ADHD. My sisiter in law just graduated from nursing student and is on a very limited income.
She says she can not afford to get him tested, I thought the school would help her, but she seems to be at a loss. I think the child has some problems and needs some help.
We live in Maryland, does anyone have any suggestion, as to where I can direct her to get him tested.
Thanks,
LBB
SUBJECT: Re:Funds for Testing Date: 96-05-24 15:36:42 EDT
From: SusanS29
Since the school recommended the testing, the school must either test him or
While it is difficult for nonqualified individuals to obtain copies of tests such as the Stanford-Binet and the Wechsler Preschool and Primary Scales of Intelligence - Revised, it should not be as difficult for you to contact the individual who is going to administer them and ask for a practical explanation of the procedures. As a parent, you have a right to basic information about the nature and validity of the tests being used to assess your child. For example, you should expect the examiner to be able to give you examples of the kinds of questions and tasks included so that you have a reasonable understanding of the skills that will be sampled, information about the purpose and validity of these measures, and the role each test is expected to play in an overall evaluation of your child. Whomever you are dealing with should, IMHO take time to make sure that you understand the what, why, and how of such testing procedures. In addition, there are a number of parent guides available in many bookstores that offer general information about these kinds of tests that you may find helpful. You may want to look in the special education section or other similar categories.
As a professional reading your message, and before attempting to guess at whether you child is LD I would want to know what the scores on the WISC-III were (the verbal IQ, the performance IQ and the full scale IQ) and then I would want to know ALL the standard scores for the academic tests on the WJ-R. In order to determine eligibility for LD one must take into consideration state requirements, but also determine if the level of academic achievement is comensurate of ability or below ability. One must never presume that a child is LD by looking at "solidly average scores" vs. "low average range of of scores." The numbers must be taken into consideration!
<<Where can one research who in geographic area deals wtih this patient population group? We live in the northwest suburban area of Detroit.
Currently we travel as much as 70 miles one way to providers.>>
Just curious. Do you ever use the WISC and the WIAT?
SUBJECT: screening
tools/preschool Date: 96-07-15 22:04:03 EDT
From: Linnea05
I am looking for some info regarding screening tools that are currently used for preschoolers. I work in an inner city Head Start- currently using the Dial R. Can anyone recommend a tool that is culturally revelent , and relatively easy to administer. Need some honest answers. No sales people PLEASE! Will appreciate any and all infor you have to share.
Thanks!
SUBJECT: Re:? about classifications Date: 96-07-19 01:04:49 EDT
From: Sandmn19
If my info is correct, SED does have some future ramifications that you need be aware of, and I believe the military is one... maybe NICHY can be of assistance...
SUBJECT: LD types? Date: 96-08-06 03:28:40 EDT
From: JSALT56
Two years ago I was tested by a nueropsychologist at my university for learning disabilities. The nueropsychologist agreed that there were learning disabilities of some type and he backed up my request for accomedations from the university. He told me, however, not to say I was learning disabled because then people would want to know what kind of learning disability I had. At the time, I was very stressed about needing accomedations and just accepted this comment. Now it strikes me as strange, however. Am I just being paranoid? Should he have been able to specify a type of learning disability?
He administered the Halstead Reitan, Benton Spreen, and Wechsler Adult
Intelligence Scale-R. I was unable to take the finger tapping portion of the
Halstead Reitan because of tics from my tourette syndrome, but completed all
of the other parts of the testing. This has all come up now because I'm
working out accomedations with the graduate program that I'm supposed to
start in September and they want more specific information than my
undergraduate program asked for. What types and how much documentation can
they demand?
SUBJECT: Re:LD types? Date: 96-08-13 20:35:46 EDT
From: Socadream
I'm not a proffessional, but I do have two kids with LD's, Adhd and a spouse with same. My hubby was diagnosed back in the sixties, as a child. My kids in the early 80's. I am very active in different educational topics and now conduct workshops on Adhd/Spec ed etc... geared to parents and teachers.
With this said, Through all the different testing situations and
proffessional that I have dealt with there has always been a discussion on
the type of disability each test showed that was present in each child. Only
with this documentation was I able to get the services/504 plans that were
needed. I think the tester should be able to tell you if it is an auditory ,
visual processing ld or whatever. This is why you pay a professional to tell
you whats going on. Without this knowledge how can you determine the best
programs for your needs? Or, as you have discovered, how can you document
anything? I would recheck this person and investigate further. Your student
support services dept should be able to help you, they are supposed to be
This is a late comment on this note, but, better late than never. Schools can ask for documentation to substantiate the presence of a disorder. Expectations can run a range, for example, on the one hand a simple letter, documenting the diagnosis, the Date of testing, and the credentials of the professional making the diagnosis may suffice. At the other extreme, a school may ask for actual summaries of test results, to establish that the assessment actually contained test results that supported the recommendations. In this instance, the types of tests you named in your post, would not likely be sufficient to establish that a specific learning disorder existed. In order to establish the presence of a learning disorder such as those involving reading, mathematics or written language, the clinician needs to use measures that sample these skills directly, such as measures of academic achievement, which are then compared with other measures that assess broad cognitive skills (e.g., the WAIS-R). The idea is that a learning disorder represents a specific area of weakness (for example reading) that is well below expectations based upon comparison with other measures of broad cognitive ability.
"The idea is that a learning disorder represents a specific area of weakness (for example reading) that is well below expectations based upon comparison with other measures of broad cognitive ability. "
This is certainly how professionals view the diagnosis of a learning disorder.
I hope Peter won't mind if I mention, though, that each state can define how they will diagnose students LD. Some states compare the student's performance (in reading, math and written expression) to their cognitive functioning (or best estimate of his or her potential based on cognitive tests).
Other states choose to compare the child's performance to his or her grade placement. This puts bright students at a great disadvantage. Where I live, a child with an IQ of 150 but who was working "at grade level" might be found to be learning disabled. My state also requires evidence of a perceptual difficulty that is the most likely explanation for the student's failure to achieve up to likely potential.
Another problem when performance is compared to grade level is that students
who are just not quite as bright as average may be labeled "learning
disabled" inappropriately. The truth is that lots of people with IQ's even of
80 or 85 (which sounds extremely low to many of us) go on to have nice lives,
hold decent jobs, raise their children, and live in peace and harmony with
the world. It's not any more strange to have an IQ of 85 than it is to have
on of 115 although clearly being brighter is an advantage.
So-unfortunately-parents need to understand what their state regulations say. And sometimes those state regulations are full of statistics and formulae that make it hard even for the professionals to sort out.
SUBJECT:
Re: LD types?T Date: 96-09-19 01:42:29 EDT
From: PeterCB55
Susan, thanks for taking the time to clarify the different ways LD can be identified, not only by statistical methods, but by school district or state criteria. One of the really frustrating "facts of life" with learning disorders, is that each method of idenfication carries with it inherent strengths and weaknesses. This becomes especially important for children who are "on the margin" and come up just shy of meeting whatever criteria is used to make the "determination" of eligibility for services in a given category. I have often struggled with the question of what is the difference between a child who falls two points beyond the cuttoff score and the child who falls two points shy of the cuttof score. My guess, is not necessarily much. As Paul Wender put it in a recent book on adults with ADHD, what is the difference between a blood pressure reading of 141/91 and 139/89. One is considered evidence of "essential hypertension" and the other is considered benign. Nevertheless, some schools can use a "team override" that enables a child to receive services, without meeting completely all of the school guidlines. However I am not sure whether individual schools have set up the means to do this in other than a school by school basis.
That's how it is where I am, Peter. If a child is quite close to qualifying, and we see clear evidence, we can provide the help.
For instance, if the child is just shy of the academic deficit required for his potential, but we also see evidence of difficulty in the classroom and clear indications of a learning disability in the testing, we can diagnose.
Usually the team sort of feels the parents out in such a case. Occasionally a parent is adamantly opposed to "labeling" and glad to have an out, but most of the time the parents say "How could you even consider not helping (him or her)?"
I worked under this system and in every case like this I can recall, the judgment was right. The child clearly functioned like a learning disabled student, benefitted markedly from interventions designed to compensate or work around weaknesses, etc.
But I don't know if all schools in all states have this kind of latitude in "borderline" diagnosis cases.
Another ludicrous scenario this sets up for parents is that their child could
be "clearly LD" in one state and then-if they move-not eligible in
another. Military families often get jerked around this way several times
during a child's elementary years.
SUBJECT: Disagree with results Date: 96-10-05 16:33:24 EDT
From: SKing93265
My daughter was tested in the 1st grade by the school. She was found to have no learning disabilities according to their results. She is now in the second grade, and performing below grade level in everything except math. The teacher had not informed us on her lack of progress in anything except spelling before the first grade report came out. We assumed she was doing OK, although I suspected she was having trouble with reading and was working with her at home.
I now find out after calling the asst. principal, that she and my child's teacher have been discussing putting my child back in the 1st grade. Can they do this without my consent? We had an ARD meeting after testing was done and it was decided that accomodations should be made in the regular classroom to allow for her slow work pace, and a 504 referral should also be made.
I must also tell you that she has diabetes, and is being treated with Depakote (no seizures in 2 years) The school is sort of trying to blame her performance difficulties on the diabetes, and medication. I have talked to the neuro. several times and he assures me that the medication will in no way interfere with learning. Neither will the diabetes.
Please excuse the rambling, I don't know how else to put this. Can I request that the school retest her even though thay say she doesn't have a learning disability? The Dr. that treats the ADD tells me that she shows many characteristics of dyslexia(it runs in my family) How do I get the school to believe me or the Dr. without more testing? To have her tested privately would cost me between 500-700 dollars. I don't think putting her back in 1st grade is the answer until we have exhausted all possibilities involving remediation.
Thanks for letting me vent, I am so frustrated!!!!!
Stephanie
SUBJECT: re:stephanie Date: 96-10-05 19:39:38 EDT
From: Writes4pay
Hi...when my son was in first grade he tested with "very gifted" IQ. Between 142 and 165 depending on which test you believe. He also did not have any learning disabilites (so the testing said) . Now in fifth grade he tests: gifted IQ/ADD/Tourette Syndrome/ TWO learning disabilities and OCD all at once!
Apparently when a child is very bright and in the lower grades they can test as "non-learning disabled" . But the older they get and the more structured and intense school gets up the problems start to appear.
Candy
SUBJECT: Re:Disagree with results Date: 96-10-05 23:01:57 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I now find out after calling the asst. principal, that she and my child's teacher have been discussing putting my child back in the 1st grade. Can they do this without my consent? "
It would be a truly terrible idea.
Do you have that 504? If not, get it.
Your child might well show signs of "dyslexia" but schools don't use that term. In addition, each state has its own standards for who will get LD support. This means it's quite possible that the doctor would say "This child has a learning disability" but the school would say "This child is not eligible."
By the way, putting her back in first grade isn't the answer even if all
remedation has been tried--*because it won't fix anything.*
The teacher was not guaranteed that all children would be on grade level. In fact it never ever happens that way. She can't be so far behind that this is unmanageable, so people need to make the decision to manage it.
Once they've made a decision to make it work, they'll find ways to do it.
"Apparently when a child is very bright and in the lower grades they can test as "non-learning disabled."
Well the testers may see the signs of perceptual impairment, etc. but it might not be slowing the student down enough. As I said in the other post, each state sets the standards. They have to be behind. Some states compare achievement to grade level and some to potential.
In states where achievement is compared to grade level, brighter students
will almost never receive help.
SUBJECT: re:susanS29's post Date: 96-10-06 01:14:04 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<Well the testers may see the signs of perceptual impairment, etc. but it might not be slowing the student down enough>> You want to hear something really wierd?
All of Bobby's life he has tested gifted (except once he got a 123). Anyway every single time a test was administered for whatever reason the evaluator....tester....doctor etc would say he had a "highly unusual scatter"....I would ask them to explain it and they would point to the Mt. Everest Peaks and Death Valley dips on the plotted graph. Each person would indicate they could not explain it but it meant "probable" trouble in years to come......
Finally as you know the "trouble" became apparent enough to identify. One evaluator said last year that she was very worried Bobby will drop out of high school,(based solely on his "IQ scatter pattern") but had no idea how to suggest I prevent it.......this was a psychologist for the school system. When I pressed for suggestions she said to MAKE him write more because his scatter showed laziness in that area. I asked if it could be caused by an LD...."Oh no, he couldn't score like this on the rest of the test if he had an LD he's just lazy when it comes to writing so you must force him to write for an hour every night."
Candy (who of course never did what she suggested and knows now he IS written
language LD and Math LD)
SUBJECT: Re:Disagree with results Date: 96-10-06 08:13:55 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<I now find out after calling the asst. principal, that she and my child's
teacher have been discussing putting my child back in the 1st grade. Can they
do this without my consent? <<
No, the school cannot retain a child without the parent's consent. They can't even insist that a child be retained. It's truly a parental decision.
Please take a look at the files in the Special Education library and download a copy of the file on Retention Research. In it you will find information you can share with the school should they continue to be difficult about this. Retention can sometimes "appear" to do some good in the first year or two while the child is being recycled through old material. But, in the long run, retention never specifically addresses the real reasons a student is struggling. It's sort of like cutting off a foot at the bottom of the blanket and sewing it onto the top to make the blanket longer!
I like Susan's suggestions which is to make a list of every single thing you
can think of to help your daughter with one caveat. Retention cannot be an
option. You'd be surprised at how creative people can get with this
quick-stop option is removed.
SUBJECT: Re:Disagree with results Date: 96-10-06 08:16:30 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<My daughter was tested in the 1st grade by the school. She was found to
have no learning disabilities according to their results. She is now in the
second grade, and performing below grade level in everything except math. >>
Question. When your daughter was tested, how was she tested? Did she have a comprehensive, multi-disciplinary set of evaluations done? Though each state has it's own qualifying requirements for a student to be eligible for special education support, it's also possible that they did not test her in a way that was comprehensive enough to really discover what is going on.
And, from those tests, eligible for special ed or not, they should be able to get some clues and hints about her areas of greatest struggle and devise ways to directly and specifically remediate and support her in those areas.
SUBJECT:
Re: Disagree with results Date: 96-10-06 08:19:27 EDT
From: Ratatat
<< We had an ARD meeting after testing was done and it was decided that
accomodations should be made in the regular classroom to allow for her slow
work pace, and a 504 referral should also be made.>>
This is an excellent thing to do. Your child has ADD and it is effecting her
ability to learn comfortably. It is interfering with a "major life
function," i.e., learning. That alone is sufficient for her to be eligible
for a 504 Accommodation Plan. And, through 504 your daughter can then
receive special education support should that be decided to be what she
needs. The laws the deal with the education of our kids really are focused
on one major thing: What does this child NEED. Specifically...your
child....your child's needs.
SUBJECT: Re:re:susanS29's post Date: 96-10-06 22:05:17 EDT
From: SusanS29
"When I pressed for suggestions she said to MAKE him write more because his scatter showed laziness in that area. "
Oh. That is HORRENDOUS.
"he's just lazy when it comes to writing so you must force him to write for an hour every night."
Candy (who of course never did what she suggested..."
GOOD GRACIOUS. Thank goodness you didn't follow that advice.
SUBJECT: durell
reading test Date: 96-10-19 23:21:03 EDT
From: Jbnconst
My daughter was tested by her remedial reading teacher with the durell reading test. Her score was low an overall 2 grade levels below what grade she is in. Should I move her from remedial reading to resource reading? Last year after an evaluation she was also found to have a learing disability (a visual perception intergration).
SUBJECT: Re:durell reading test Date: 96-10-20 11:40:22 EDT
From: SusanS29
If she's not progressing in reading, then resource room might be an option- but be certain, first, that the resource teacher has had experience teaching children who are very difficult to teach to read.
Currently reading is not always taught in the resource room. Most schools' reading interventions are funded by the federal government. So is special education.
Federal regulations require that a child receive help with reading only in one of the two places, and usually the remedial reading teacher gets them. It makes sense since reading is their entire area of expertise.
The result is that many spedial education teachers don't teach reading. So
find out first what would be done.
SUBJECT: Apraxia Date: 96-10-26 10:03:14 EDT
From: MPWinstead
I have a student with severe learning disabilities and severe apraxia. He is an 8th grader reading on a 1.9 level. I've been reading the back posts on this board, have gotten some excellent info., and have some questions. Is this a physical or brain-based condition? In other words, is there a physical reason for a child's inability to speak clearly or is the brain sending jumbled signals?
Is a speech therapist the person to "treat" apraxia? What sorts of things can be done?
This diagnosis is showing up more and more in evaluations I read in connection with learning disabilities. ANY info would be greatly appreciated!
Thanks in advance!
SUBJECT: S.E STANDARDIZED TEST Date: 96-10-29 21:41:47 EDT
From: Kumquat59
I am a special education dept head and am interested in an standardized test
for Special Ed. The district is thinking of doing away with the the present
subjective end of year tests and having all students take the same test as
others EWT's,MAT's. Looking for an alternative. Want the same standards as
I would greatly appreciate answers to the following questions:
1. Our district assessment department has recently replaced use of the Woodcock Johnson Revised (WJR) achievement test with the Weschler Individual Achievement Test (WIAT). It has come to my attention that the WIAT is under fire because it is not co-normed and because the oral and written expression subtests are extremely subjective. It also has a huge variance in SEM (40 points from high to low). District personnel say this SEM variance is better than the traditional 20 points. Has validity been formally questioned? How could a 40 vs 20 point variance in SEM be better and for whom?
2. Why would WISC III full scale IQ results be 20 to 30 points below cognitive ability scores from the WJR Test of Cognitive Abilities and the CoGat (ITBS cognitive abilities group test).
The CoGat is useless; ignore it. In particular it is useless diagnostically.
There's no way a wider Standard Error of Measurement is better than a
narrower one. That said, each test has its advantages.
SUBJECT: Re:Apraxia Date: 96-11-07 20:36:19 EDT
From: TLVAIL
Most people believe apaxia is a neurological based disorder. It involves
sequencing and motor planning. The brain know what it wants to say and the
muscles work fine- The child just can't "find" the right motor plan. Yes,
an SLP is the person to treat-especially young children. Unfortunately we
often see other problems later requiring additional services. These kids
often have difficulty learning to read because of the sequencing problems-
Following complex directions and comprehension problems also result from the
sequencing disorder. The motor planning problems may also affect the limbs
in which case handwriting and other gross and fine motor problems may occur-
In these cases, an OT and/or PT need to be consulted.
SUBJECT: Re:Apraxia Date: 96-11-08 09:29:11 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Most people believe apaxia is a neurological based disorder. It involves sequencing and motor planning."
Apraxia is, in fact, a neurological term used often to describe a certain type of cerebral palsy.
My husband's cousin has severe oral apraxia, and it's very hard to understand what she says. I told her I had mild CP (affecting my legs very slightly) and she said "So do I! Why do you think I talk like this?"
Hers is severe enough that it interferes with eating as well as speaking. She'll come to a family dinner but eat at home first, and just sip a drink while there because she's embarassed by it. She is, I think, 62 now.
She has no CP affecting arms or legs-just her mouth, and I think to some
extent her facial muscles as well.
SUBJECT: Need information Date: 96-11-08 12:33:28 EDT
From: LaneLE
My husband and I have been offered a wonderful little girl from Bulgaria- this will be our second. We are committed to her but also want to know what we are getting ourselves into, if anything.
Her medical report states that her" IQ is 85 by Bina-Terken (normal intellect)".
What does this mean? Is this the same scale ued in the US?
Any assistance would be very helpful-either post here or at LaneLE.
Thanks for your reply. Would CoGat scores be valid to determine possible giftedness? The score seems to correspond to the WJR Test of Cognitive Abilities given prior to the CoGat. Why is the CoGat not ok?
What would explain a 20 point difference in the WISC III full scale score and the Woodcock Johnson Test of Cognitive Abilities score other than "good day, bad day?"
Me, again-I'm afraid to be disconnected, so keep posting questions separately!
Could you be more specific about advantages/disadvantages for each
instrument?
SUBJECT: Testing Date: 96-11-08 20:11:45 EDT
From: Kumquat59
I am interested in the names of any tests that might be more accurate than
the ARI, WRAT, or Slosson that has been administered by S.E teachers in my
district. Also, are their computer generated tests that can be used for
Special Needs students that will adjust grade levels according to individual
student responses? Will appreciate some testing help??
SUBJECT: Re: Ratatat
504 Date: 96-11-08 21:36:37 EDT
From: RITSIB
When a child is identified as meeting criteria for section 504 accomodations and/or expectations may be altered, however this is not special education. A 504 accomodation plan may be designed, however this is NOT the same as a IEP. Both documents are recognized and legally bound by the school district, but they really are and include very different information and plans.
SUBJECT:
Re: Ratatat Date: 96-11-08 21:42:49 EDT
From: RITSIB
What on earth are your qualifications????? Parents do not retain their children the school does! Did this child attend readiness or kindergarten? The school may have chosen to retain because perhaps this child is developmentally or chronilogically young and could really benefit from another year working on the building blocks of education before progressing.
You suggest to proceed with a weak foundation-it can't help but crumble
"Thanks for your reply. Would CoGat scores be valid to determine possible giftedness? "
Not to determine giftedness, but kids who score very high on it should be evaluated with an individual test.
Simply put, a group test is a terrible way to try to determine potential. It doesn't tap into enough areas, so kids with a strong weakness in one of the areas group tests use a lot will come up artificially low.
Statistically they're a joke. The whole premise they're based on is false.
And there are far better ways to pick out those who may be gifted or talented, again because a group achievement test simply can't go into many areas.
Understand that I used to work for a publisher who published these tests along with achievement test. I was the field representative who went to the schools and explained how the test scores were derived, what they meant, how the tests were constructed, etc. So I have a fair amount of knowledge about them.
I refused to "push" them.
SUBJECT: Re:Testing Date: 96-11-09 01:06:20 EDT
From: SusanS29
The Slossen just isn't a good test to use. Like the group achievement tests, it just doesn't test enough areas. The information from it isn't reliable, particularly for a child who has a learning or language disability.
I don't like the WRAT because it's too short. It doesn't give a complete
enough sample of the materials it tests.
SUBJECT: Re:Ratatat Date: 96-11-09 01:10:24 EDT
From: SusanS29
Ratatat is a person who has researched the issue of retention rigorously for several years. If there's any person on AOL anywhere with a more complete collection of research on the subject I'd eat my hat.
And she's found some remarkable things, much of it available in the Special Education Library.
A child who is retained, say in first grade, has a good first grade the next year. Second grade won't be as great, but may be OK.
By third grade in almost all cases the child is falling behind again, and by fourth grade in almost all cases the child is as far behind or nearly as far behind as he would have been if not retained. This was determined via some very well-controlled studies that matched similar children who were or were not retained.
By high school, children who have been retained are five times as likely to drop out without graduating as students who had similar difficulties but who weren't retained.
That is not what I call a good outcome.
THAT SAID-we are very close here to an "ad hominem," or personal attack.
Let's make sure we keep the discussion focused on the message, and not the messengers.
Thanks.
SUBJECT: Re:Ratatat Date: 96-11-09 01:26:56 EDT
From: Ratatat
<< Parents do not retain their children the school does! >>
Sorry. Contact the National Association of Elementary School Principals and
ask for their policy statement on retention. And, then ask your school
district if they can retain a child without the parent's consent. If they
say they can, then they are in violation of your rights as a parent to be
equal partners with the schools in making educational decision for the
children.
SUBJECT: Testing for LD in schools Date: 96-11-09 12:16:52 EDT
From: Chilart
My son has been in special ed classes since 1st grade he is now in 3rd grade.
He has been given the label in his records as having ADD. I feel he shows
more signs of Dyslexia especially from the research I have done about it and
according to our family history. I was told by the school the other day that
the only testing our district will do for reading disabilities is the
original placement tests. We live in Phx Az. If he has a label of ADD and he
has Dyslexia, will he get what he needs in his special classes? He has hardly
progressed according to his IEPs. My next step is to find a Dr. and try and
get a diagnosis.Any suggestions? Is it true that the only testing a district
can do is initial testing for placement in LD classes?
SUBJECT: Re:Testing for
LD in schools Date: 96-11-09 16:18:10 EDT
From: Ratatat
<< I was told by the school the other day that the only testing our district
will do for reading disabilities is the original placement tests.>>
Do you happen to know what these tests are? What their names are? The schools are required to conduct a comprehenisve, multi-disciplinary evaluation of your child if you suspect he has an undiagnosed disability.
Make sure than any requests you make are IN WRITING. It's important to
always have documentation when requesting services.
SUBJECT: Re:Testing for LD
in schools Date: 96-11-09 23:14:38 EDT
From: SusanS29
"If he has a label of ADD and he has Dyslexia, will he get what he needs in his special classes?"
Public schools do not test for "dyslexia," a term that has almost as many definitions are there are people using it. They test for learning disabilities in the areas of reading, written expression and math.
"Is it true that the only testing a district can do is initial testing for placement in LD classes?"
They're required to re-do that testing every three years, but that testing should be thorough enough to spot any learning disabilities.
You should know that ADD can cause significant reading problems, so it's possible the diagnosis is a correct one. But in your case yes I think I would get an outside evaluation.
You say he's made "almost no progress in two years." Can you provide any more information about that? Do you have test scores, for instance, showing little progress? Please post back. This might be pretty important.
Our district uses the CoGat as THE screening test for giftedness and admission to the GATE program. I am in the process of getting their application to the state to see what other methods they have for determining admission to GATE because I understand that only one screening test method is against the law. Thanks for your input on this particular test.
<<Our district uses the CoGat as THE screening test for giftedness and admission to the GATE program. >.
For anybody who wants to, you can look up these tests in the Book of Mental Measurements by Buro's (I'm fuzzy on the spelling, but it's not Boroughs). Within this reference work you can find all the tests explaned and reviewed. The reviews are very honest about the tests limitations and are reports written by experts in the field. I highly recommend a visit to this book.
Our public library had a copy that I sat down with.
Thank-you for your response to the WRAT,Slosson and ARI. I fully agree,but do
you have any suggestions on specific tests that can be teacher
administered,giving us more accurate g.l and information.
SUBJECT: Re:Testing
for LD in schools Date: 96-11-11 23:16:06 EDT
From: Chilart
To SusanS29, Thanks for your response. We have never recieved documentation from this school of any test scores for any testing. We have recieved from his IEP paperwork at what grade level he is at according to The Kaufman Test Of Educational Achievement. 5-10-94 in reading he was at K.4, Math K.O beginning, written expression K.8 levels.
His last IEP indicated that we are still trying to reach 1st grade level in all areas. that was Dated 9-10-96. I know that public schools don't test for Dyslexia, this is why we are considering having the testing done on our own. Am I expecting too much ? He is in the 3rd grade and is still trying to reach 1st grade level. My husbands sister wasnt diagnosed with Dyslexia until highschool, after which she dropped out, out of frustration. Maybe I am overreacting . From watching my husbands Mother, Sister, and His Grandfather struggle from Dyslexia I am a little scared. I really appriciate your response.
We used Key Word and KEy Math (if I remember the names right). I often included an informal reading inventory such as the Silvaroli as well.
SUBJECT:
Re: Testing for LD in schools Date: 96-11-12 20:24:03 EDT
From: TLVAIL
If I were you, I'd ask for an independent evaluation from an outside agency
based on the lack of progress your child has made with his current program-
sounds like the last 2 IEP's may have been very similar! Request the
evaluation in writing to the special ed administrator. As long as the fee is
reasonable and the evaluators are licensed/certified to the extent required
by the state guidelines, the school system should pay for the evaluation. I
would also ask for, in writing, a copy of the origional psychological report
that was conducted.
SUBJECT: Re:Testing for LD in schools Date: 96-11-12 22:59:26 EDT
From: Chilart
To TLVAIL, thanks for your response. You are right, his last 2 IEPs were similar.Any guidence at this point is appriciated.
thanks from Chilart.
SUBJECT: Getting to the problem Date: 96-11-13 01:40:48 EDT
From: Julia31528
My daughter (age 10) has been diagnosed as having learning disabilities by two psychologists. Testing showed the difference between anticipated achievement (from I.Q. and testing of Auditory Reception) and actual achievement in math and reading. Tests of visual perception also indicated problems in this area. She has a great deal of trouble understanding math concepts (such as quantity and 1-1 correspondence) and recognizing written words though not individual letters (she does some reversals of words, such as "saw" for "was"). Spelling verbally is one of her strengths.
Is there additional testing which can pinpoint more precisely what problems my daughter is having in learning these subjects for the purpose of determining how to address them? In other words, how does an evaluator determine what methods should be used to remediate problems in math and reading for a specific child who has learning disabilities?
I would appreciate any ideas and the names of tests.
Thanks.
Julia
SUBJECT: Re:Getting to the problem Date: 96-11-16 10:47:15 EDT
From: PeterCB55
An evaluator, could help to sharpen the focus on what the problem is and is not. Initially, what you hope to find is a "pattern" that stands out across sources of data (i.e., parent and teacher report, observations, test results, history and if your lucky child report) that "highlight" specific areas of weakness. The "second" step involves considering what types of factors can produce the weakness(es) seen on testing. There are several classes of factors that need to be considered. "Random" factors like noise in or near the testing room, or a tired kid without breakfast can elicit a poor performance on tasks sesnsitive to auditory attention. Then there are are factors that live within the child (e.g., hearing problems , an attention disorder or a language processing deficit) that can lead to these results. A lack of exposure to or experience with certain types of tasks or test materials can also contribute to performance deficits. Then there are certain types of factors that are "known" to produce patterns of weakness found on testing. For example, anxiety and low mood, can "look" elicit erratic performance that can be found on various tests. This step involves systematically ruling-in what else could be contributing to the particular pattern of strengths and weaknesses your child displays and then sorting through them to rule-out those that lack support. Next, your evaluator could/should profile the most likely explanations and modifying factors and then take further steps to establish confidence in their conclusions (i.e., is it a "relative" or an "absolute" weakness in auditory processing or something more, and if so what is the source and are there external or "within" the child factors that do not cause the problem but can make it better or worse). With this information in hand they could review with you specific interventions that are likely to be useful in the situations/settings where trouble can occur. Just because someone has an "auditory processing" problem by itself isn't necessarily a call to action. The issue of intervention also involves knowing what the child's needs are in different settings and the capacty of the child or the adults nearby to use those tools.
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: Re:WISC III-Over time Date: 96-11-17 13:35:50 EDT
From: Lmazzola
I have a question regarding variation in overall IQ scores, Full Scale as well as Verbal and Performance individual subtest scores. How much variation can/should be expected over time?
My daughter has had 3 WISC's done in the past 6 years. The first was a WISC-R - full scale was 119. The next two were WISC-III's w/full score's of 112 and the latest at 103. Is this much variation normal? I've been told that there is a big difference between the WISC-R and the WISC-III, as much as a 10-point scoring difference, but that doesn't account for the 9 point difference in the two WISC-III's.
The 1st WISC showed no discrepancies between Verbal and Performance, the 2nd showed major discrepancies - in favor of performance and this last one again shows no discrepancies.
Can anyone shed some light on this?
Thanks,
Lisa
SUBJECT: Blind - Normed IQ tests Date: 96-11-18 00:10:58 EDT
From: MrJHolland
I am looking for information on IQ tests normed for Blind Children. Our daughter was tested a year ago. Test adminstrator used test normed for sighted child. This has caused numerous problems as IQ is not accurate. We are looking for any information on this area. Schools for the Blind & Agencies. Local Commission for the Blind in S.C. has not been of help.
SUBJECT:
Re: WISC III-Over time Date: 96-11-18 14:47:02 EDT
From: SusanS29
Lisa the nine point difference between the two tests are not statistically different. It makes no significant point about the child's education.
SUBJECT:
Re: WISC III-Over time Date: 96-11-18 20:42:29 EDT
From: Lmazzola
Susan:
As it turns out, this psychologist told me today at our Team meeting that the previous psychologist made an error when scoring the picture completion on the previous WISC-III. If she had scored it correctly, the Full Scale IQ's would have been relatively the same on both.
But I guess this really doesn't mean anything anyway.
By the way, the school has denied, once again, my request for phonetic instruction for my 14 y.o. They claim that she is making effective progress (1st term grades are out and she got A-, B, B, B- and C-) Because her comprehension scores were high average they claim it negates the 18% Word Attack score and the 23% Word Identification score. If she's comprehending the material overall, she doesn't need to learn how to decode individual words.
They have chosen to totally ignore the fact that I have to read most of her assignments to her in order for her to do her work. What a mess!
Lisa
SUBJECT: Re:WISC III-Over time Date: 96-11-20 08:39:53 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<They have chosen to totally ignore the fact that I have to read most of her
assignments to her in order for her to do her work. What a mess! >>
Has your daughter been diagnosed with a specific reading disability?
Have you looked into books on tape? The Library for the Blind provides them free of charge, along with the play-back machine. I've got the phone number here somewhere if you want it. They have regional centers around the U.S.
To be eligible all you need to is provide a letter from a physician stating
that your child would benefit from this service.
SUBJECT: Re:WISC III-Over time Date: 96-11-20 10:34:07 EDT
From: SusanS29
"By the way, the school has denied, once again, my request for phonetic instruction for my 14 y.o. They claim that she is making effective progress (1st term grades are out and she got A-, B, B, B- and C-) Because her comprehension scores were high average they claim it negates the 18% Word Attack score and the 23% Word Identification score."
If, in the past, they attempted to remediate these areas with little or no success, then they may well have the right to decline doing this. At this age it would require one-on-one instruction, and few junior/ senior high schools would even have someone with adequate skills to teach these things to a child who had a long history of significant difficulty.
If they never attempted to teach these areas but the child had been diagnosed as weak in them, then that might be a different situation.
I'm sorry. I try to speak the truth, even when it's not the answer one might
have hoped for.
SUBJECT: Re:WISC III-Over time Date: 96-11-20 17:09:22 EDT
From: Lmazzola
Hi Susan & Ratatat:
If you read the other folders, you will know by now that they have indeed agreed to 1:1 phonetic tutoring, most likely the Wilson Method, as they do have someone on staff that is trained. Mind you, it is only a 10-12 week trial period (maybe longer), but I am extremely happy to at least have the chance to see if this will work.
This system never remediates, as far as I can tell. They provide "curriculum support", which I don't believe is the same thing. However, I believe that the evidence was overwhelming, dating back to 2nd grade, that they did not do anything about it.
Susan, I wouldn't expect anything BUT the truth from you!! I consider myself to be a fair and open minded person. Which is why I'm usually asking for help. Every once in awhile I think we need to step back and assess what we are doing and why we are doing it. We are only human, therefore, we can be subject to "tunnel vision".
I appreciate your honesty, clarity and help. (Even if it's not what I WANT to hear, it still may be what I NEED to hear!)
I have been asked to put together a file of middle-school content skills and possible assessment tools and tests to give to a 5th grade student who is currently being home-taught. He has an excelled scanning ability (haven't tested this out yet, any ideas for assessments) and photographic memory (I've been told). I haven't had a chance to see these skills in action. My problem is that I'm not sure where to start. If I look at Science curriculum in the middle-school, do I test him on his knowledge of the main content skills taught to 8th graders? Etc. for Math, Soc. Sci., Literature. We are not sure at what curriculum level and/or grade to start teaching him at. Any ideas? Sorry this seems a little unclear, but not sure what he needs to learn or how to implement it all according to his learning styles.
<< We are not sure at what curriculum level and/or grade to start teaching
him at. >>
Obviously, you need to give him assessments that determine the level at which he is presently working, and then take him from there. I don't understand why you would give an 8th grade level assessment to a 5th grader? Can you clarify?
Also, check the Homeschooling area on AOL. I bet they have some information there that could be helpful to you.
SUBJECT: syndrome? Date: 96-11-21 19:12:03 EDT
From: R u Niz
A special ed colleague at my school asked me to leave a message asking if anyone has heard of "Wills" syndrome? Neither of us has heard of it, but it was suggested as a possible diagnosis for one of our students. Both my colleague and I suspect a chromosomal anomaly in this student. The pschologist at our school in the past identified this student as SLD. Today, our current psychologist corrected that diagnosis and the child is now labeled as cognitively disabled-Chicago speak for EMH. He can read 5th grade material but understands only to the 3.5 level, can do virtually no math, and has problems with communication and socialization. Anoxia at birth, or during birth, is in his records-but his physical features are also "different". He is very small for his age (12) and has very small hands. Difficulty with balance, too-and a history of falls. Does any of this ring a bell? I realize that no one can diagnose with out meeting or testing-I'm just wondering if these characteristics might sound familiar to anyone.
Thanks
SUBJECT: Re:syndrome? Date: 96-11-21 21:58:26 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<A special ed colleague at my school asked me to leave a message asking if
anyone has heard of "Wills" syndrome? >>
If you contact NICHY (National Information Center for Children and Youth with
Disabilities) they can send you a list of national resources, some specific
to his disorder. I've hard of it, but that's all. I know that NICHY can be
helpful to you. 1-800-695-0285
SUBJECT: Re:WISC III-Over time Date: 96-11-22 22:21:37 EDT
From: SusanS29
"If you read the other folders, you will know by now that they have indeed agreed to 1:1 phonetic tutoring, most likely the Wilson Method, as they do have someone on staff that is trained. Mind you, it is only a 10-12 week trial period (maybe longer), but I am extremely happy to at least have the chance to see if this will work."
Wow, that's great, LM! (As host of the area I have to read all the messages every day, and I sometimes forget details or am not certain who is doing what, so I appreciate the clarification).
"This system never remediates, as far as I can tell. They provide "curriculum support", which I don't believe is the same thing. However, I believe that the evidence was overwhelming, dating back to 2nd grade, that they did not do anything about it. "
LM my guess is that they knwo how vulnerable they are on this issue. They can do "curriculum support" and not "remediation," but the bottom line is that if a child doesn't make reasonable success after things like IQ and degree of impairment have been taken into consideration-worst case scenario is that they are liable for private school tuition. This is something you need to explore with your lawyer. In fact this may even be "too little too late," so check that out and be careful what you sign.
How lucky your child is to have you!
SUBJECT: Re:WISC III-Over time Date: 96-11-23 16:02:02 EDT
From: Lmazzola
Susan:
I feel that the words "thank you" are insufficient in regards to the help that I've in this forum. If it weren't for everyone here and especially you, I don't know whether I would have continued to advocate for my kids. It is especially helpful when there are differing opinions, as this enables me to see things from many perspectives. More importantly though, it is the validation that I'm heading in the right direction that has motivated me to continue and not give up.
Many, many thanks for your kind words and advice. Have a wonderful Thanksgiving.
Lisa
SUBJECT: Re:WISC III-Over time Date: 96-11-23 21:31:12 EDT
From: SusanS29
Thank you for the kind words, Lisa. You're absolutely right. It's very important to hear multiple viewpoints. The real knowledge comes from where they cross. :)
Susan
SUBJECT: Which test to believe? Date: 96-11-27 21:23:28 EDT
From: GM RTIII
The psy at my daughters school refused to test her, said she didn't "fit the picture for LD. I insisted and was told to take her to the college in the area (she's 17). She was tested at the college and has an IQ of 105 and a cognative learning disability. It was the Woodcock-Johnson. We brought the IEP back to the HS and the said they didn't believe it and she would have to be tested anyway at the HS to receive services so she was tested again. They tested with Standford-Beigne and came up with and IQ 87 and no LD just very low vocabulary 14% for her age. The only service they offered was a speech pathologist. Which test to believe also we are thinking of lodging a complaint with the school district. She has a private tutor she has me weekly since July and now has a GPA of 3.3 She is very active in leardership at school could she really have an IQ of 87 and be OVER achieving as we were told.
SUBJECT: Re:Which test to believe? Date: 96-11-27 23:27:33 EDT
From: SusanS29
Have they done a complete langauge evaluation on her? A language disorder can result in wildly-different results from one IQ test to the next.
Meanwhile at hs she may be choosing classes that don't put as much stress on her language problems and allow her to perform at a higher level.
But if she has a language disability it does need to be addressed.
SUBJECT:
Re: Which test to believe? Date: 96-11-29 20:22:17 EDT
From: R u Niz
Does a psychologist have the right to refuse to test a child? I understood that parents can request a case study evaluation. As part of the "child find" section of the federal law aren't the public schools required to at least test for the disabilities?
Our case manager has been claiming that she can refuse to set the case study evaluation in motion if she feels the report card or Iowa test scores don't suggest a problem. I think she's wrong.
SUBJECT: Re:Which test to believe? Date: 96-11-30 15:14:40 EDT
From: SusanS29
She is wrong, because neither Iowas nor grades are taken into consideration for special education.
HOWEVER-if, in your state, IQ is not figured into the formula when eligibility is determined, then she might be making an accurate prediction.
Where I live a child with an IQ of 140 who is working on grade level can still be considered for LD services (if other things are present) because he or she is performing signicantly below their potential.
In states where IQ is not taken into consideration, that wouldn't happen.
SUBJECT: Re:Which test to believe? Date: 96-11-30 23:46:29 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Our case manager has been claiming that she can refuse to set the case
study evaluation in motion if she feels the report card or Iowa test scores
don't suggest a
problem. I think she's wrong. >>
If a parent (or school staff member) has a concern about a student's ability to achieve and requests that the school evaluate the child, the under "child find" they school is obligated to do an assessment. A parent can request that these evaluations be done, but they are smart to do so IN WRITING and send a copy to the Director of Special Education and the Principal of the school.
SUBJECT: Re:Which test to believe? Date: 96-12-01 20:07:14 EDT
From: R u Niz
Thanks, Susan&Ratatat-
I thought I was right. I'm in Illinois and IQ is taken into consideration here. The problem involves identifying students who are working harder than than one would expect, with a great deal of parent help and only earning "c" or "D" grades in certain classes. I consider this type of situation worth investigating, but I fight an uphill battle most of the time. My case manager will try to say that off-task behavior or forgetting to hand in or finish homework is normal. I know something is out of whack when a mom tells me her son was excited and went with her for report card pick-up because he was so sure his grades were good, and then was completely crushed by a "D". Luckily, this kid is going to have a full case study evaluation-after we won the battle. But there should have been no hour long discussion at the table.
It seems that our school is spending all it's testing time on students who have very obvious problems (I don't think this is wrong) and the mildly disabled are relegated to the back burner where they are forgotten. I am offended that I am looked upon as a pain in the neck for arguing the cases that shouldn't require an argument. Thanks for letting me vent.
SUBJECT:
Re: Which test to believe? Date: 96-12-02 21:34:49 EDT
From: WCUSU95
I don't know about your state, but in New York, if a parent requests that a child be tested for LD, then by LAW the school has 30 school days to test the child. No case manager has the right to say that a child shouldn't be tested. I'm appalled by this!!
SUBJECT: Re:Which test to believe? Date: 96-12-12 01:10:09 EDT
From: GM RTIII
We live in Calif. I just sent a letter to the State of Calif Sp Ed Dept and asked for "Due Process" they will investigate at the local level and have an outside mediator look into this. I'll keep you posted. How can you have an IQ 105 and a cognitative processing deficit on one test and 6months later have an IQ of 87 and be over achieving? I think the high school is trying to pull a fast one since they refused(found out they can't) and now are trying to cover up and say she NEVER had a LD to begin with .
SUBJECT: Re:Which test to believe? Date: 96-12-12 01:27:47 EDT
From: SusanS29
"How can you have an IQ 105 and a cognitative processing deficit on one test and 6months later have an IQ of 87 and be over achieving? "
It happens. Different tests challenge different areas of functioning and in different ways.
In reality, statistically there's no difference between a score of 100 and 86 or 114. Which complicates things, I know-not clarifies.
But-generally speaking-schools should take the highest measure as the
child's assumed potential. That might be one way you could challenge
this.
SUBJECT: testing Date: 96-12-12 20:14:36 EDT
From: Mithue
I'm looking for the address of Western Publishing Company so I can order the Wepman Test of Discrimination. Does anyone use anything else besides TOLD to assess discrimination?
Mithue
SUBJECT: Re:Which test to believe? Date: 96-12-12 22:04:34 EDT
From: CAB856
"But-generally speaking-schools should take the highest measure as the child's assumed potential. That might be one way you could challenge this."
Could you explain what you mean by this? Some tests are a lot better than others. For example, if a person used a TONI-2, score that was higher than a WISC-III score just because it was higher doesn't mean that the TONI-2 score is the best measure of the child's true potential- Right? Please explain what you meant by your statement.
SUBJECT: Re:Which test to believe? Date: 96-12-13 09:45:06 EDT
From: SusanS29
""But-generally speaking-schools should take the highest measure as the child's assumed potential. That might be one way you could challenge this."
Could you explain what you mean by this? Some tests are a lot better than others. For example, if a person used a TONI-2, score that was higher than a WISC-III score just because it was higher doesn't mean that the TONI-2 score is the best measure of the child's true potential- Right? Please explain what you meant by your statement. "
I am not familiar wtih the TONI so I have to assume that it is not an IQ test.
If you have IQ tests -- true tests of intellectual potential-then responsible evaluators assume the highest one is the "best estimate." It doesn't guarantee the child will function at that level at helped, but it's the cautious approach.
Among those tests I would include the Stanford-Binet, any form of the WISC (not all have switched over to R)... I would mention the Kaufman but we have to be careful there because I'm not talking about one high score on one subtest, surrounded by a sea of lower ones.
If the student has a huge spread between verbal and performance, the higher score, not the full score, should be used.
I worked with a student once who had a verbal of 137 and performance of 187. Full Score was 110, but over the years this student has continued to meet or exceed the higher score when working to her strengths. She'll be going on to a very good college to study medieval history and literature.
Based on a FS of 110 she likely wouldn't have been nudged in that direction.
I'm not talking about tests that aren't recognized as reliable measures, but the people who are making these decisions should already know which tests have high enough validity, and which ones don't measure such isolated skills that they may be measuring one specific strength rather than a true ability that can be taught to.
SUBJECT: Re:Which test to believe? Date: 96-12-13 09:46:22 EDT
From: SusanS29
WHOOOPS! THAT is what I call a typo!
I said: "
I worked with a student once who had a verbal of 137 and performance of 187."
I meant eighty-seven, not one hundred eighty seven!!!
SUBJECT: Re:Which test to believe? Date: 96-12-13 19:01:35 EDT
From: R u Niz
Thanks for the correction, Susan. I was trying to figure out the Math
:)
SUBJECT: Re:testing Date: 96-12-13 22:04:17 EDT
From: TLVAIL
The Test of Auditory Perceptual Skills (TAPS) has a good deiscrim section in
it. The entire test is done verbally (no pics) and I've found it very
helpful. You can get it from Psychological and Educational Publications,
Scot to be eligible for help under 504 first a disability has to be noted.
If the child has been found ineligible for an IEP, the school is saying that no disability exists.
If the child is learning disabilities, neither an IEP nor a 504 will cause it to go away. The "stigma" of the label is small compared to the damage that an undiagnosed and unmanaged LD can cause, but it's not reasonable to think that interventions will avoid the label. They won't.
SUBJECT: Re:Which test to believe? Date: 97-01-04 20:19:44 EDT
From: DVC Mom
I'm a newcomer to this folder but I am extremely interested in whatever
happened tothe case initially mentioned in this thread,
I feel the child should be tested by both the school system and an independent evaluator utilizing the same testing instruments. I think if I was this parent I'd probably get even a third opinion.
The standard battery of tests in our school system is the WISC and WIAT. Since I am an SLP I almost always give a PPVT-R, and CELF-3 (PLS or CELF-Preschool for younger children), and a language sample. I also use The Listening Test and TAPS if I suspect auditory processing difficulties. Other tests I might use are the Sequenced Inventory for Communicative Development, The Language Processing Test, and The Word Test.
In Tennessee, a discrepancy formula (-16) between FSIQ (unless there is a significant difference between verbal and performance IQ, then the higher score is used) and acheivement scores (using the WIAT and my language measures such as the CELF-3). The term dyslexia is not used in this state. The child would have to be LD in reading to qualify.
SUBJECT: Re:Which test to believe? Date: 97-01-06 22:50:39 EDT
From: CAB856
How could you test the child using the same instrument? One should wait at least 2 or 3 years before using the same test on the same individual again. As you probably already know kids can become wise to tests, especially if they've been given the same tests in a relativily short period of time.
Personally, I don't think the results would be valid if you tested the kid
using the same tests someone used one week earlier.
Part of the dilemma in the situation where a child is "just shy" of meeting criteria qualifying them for special ed services, involves the need to understand "Why" just shy. From a qualification point of view, I suppose we could make an argument to the effect that "well, we as evaluators have done our job, so there is no reason to look further. I mean, the kid didn't qualify, so let the parents pay for a tutor. However, children who fall into this range (e.g., close but not at or over criteria) deserve careful scrutiny so that their needs can be addressed whether or not the meet formal screening criteria. For example, some children, employ compensatory strategies in the context of testing in a one-on-one situation that in effect buffer the impact of their weaknesses. As a result we sometimes obtain scores that do not provide an accurate reflection of a child's usual experience with daily learning activities and assignments. Qualitative evaluation of a students performance, in and outside of the formal testing situation however, may provide important clues about the conditions under which some children perform at or above their typical level of output. The point, is I suppose that scores only reflect one facet of the difference we are interested in, while the performance required to produce those scores (i.e., in terms of personal effort) also adds to our understanding of the difference between children who have a slight weakness in a given area and those with significant problems acquiring a particular academic skill. In some districts there is permission for special education teams to recommend an "override" of formal qualification criteria, which enable this group of children to be considered on the basis of need or other relevant factors that warrent consideration. It is my guess that many special education teams have some means to cope with these types of situations. Perhaps others can add to this thread in terms of their own experiences.
Regards
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: Re:Which test to believe? Date: 97-01-07 11:14:45 EDT
From: Wheels2082
2 to 3 years isn't enough space. I can tell you this from personal experience. I was tested every two years in school for the IQ. Recognized the parts and got better doing them. Now some parts come naturally to me.
Dawn
Online teacher
Special Education Advocate
SUBJECT: Test Results?? Date: 97-01-07 14:20:57 EDT
From: Luludee
Please tell me.. what is the "normal" or average IQ? My 3 year old was tested and the IEP results said he has an IQ of 106--without being able to complete any portions of the test requiring a verbal response.They state this reveals "Excellent Potential". What would be the expected result without any verbal responses?
But they also tried to tell me that his language was age appropriate --- his receptive language was in the 98% and his expressive language in the 2%---it evened out to be age appropriate (with a vocabulary of a 19 month old) I had to fight to get him to receive preschool handicapped intervention.
In our LEA we can use a "discrepency Alternative" to place a child LD if the behaviors shown indicate a learning disability but the child doesn't qualify given standardized testing. The committee has to document, with work samples, evidence of a process disorder (Visual, auditory, language, motor) and make a case as to why they think an LD is present. The case then goes to an administrative placement committee for review and final approval.
SUBJECT:
Re: Test Results?? Date: 97-01-07 20:23:54 EDT
From: TLVAIL
What test did they use? Many tests will give you a verbal and performance
score as well as a full scale IQ score. His language is certainly not
normal!! You don't use a combined score to document no need for service when
there's that much difference between the receptive and expressive scores! In
fact, with his IQ being in the average range (85-115) the low expressive
language scores are even more of a concern. I'm glad you fought to get him
help!
SUBJECT: Re:Which tests to belive Date: 97-01-08 01:03:05 EDT
From: GM RTIII
Well we got the State in this (Calif) we found out my daughters rights were denies. They can't refuse to test her, they should have used the college IEP ( they sent me there) and delayment of special services. The school district is also going to pay back to money we paid to a private tutor. (Had to really fight for that one). I bet the school district is sorry they didn't test my daughter also they found discrepencies in the high schools test. More parents need to let the word out and also fight for there children rights. It is so sad that we have to FIGHT for our kids to just be tested. There were 3 other kids that I know of the were refused to be tested. I told their parents and now 2 are being tested and the other is being reimbursed for the private test they paid for ($350).
Yes they do but the verbal classifications are a little different. 110 - 120
is called "bright normal" I think...
SUBJECT: Non-Verbal IQ Test Date: 97-01-09 18:39:14 EDT
From: MPWinstead
I'm looking for info on non-verbal IQ tests to give a student who has a severe learning disability, severe ADD, AND severe dyspraxia. The schools have been making his placement based on a combined WISC score. (Unbelievable, I know)
I'm familiar with the Leiter and know that there is no longer reliability/validity data. Also, it was normed (as such) on "normal" childrenand did not include any of the population it was intended to test. I've heard of the Hiskey-Nebraska but don't know much about it.
What about the newer TONI (Test of Non-Verbal Intelligence)?
This kid needs a more valid measure that is appropriate to his disabilities.
Any suggestions?
SUBJECT: Re:Non-Verbal IQ Test Date: 97-01-09 23:41:09 EDT
From: CAB856
Try the Comprehensive Test of Nonverbal Intelligence (CTONI). I believe it's
distributed by ProEd. Then there's a new on that might not even be
available yet. It's by AGS and it's called Universal Nonverbal Intelligence
Test (UNIT).
SUBJECT: Re:Non-Verbal IQ Test Date: 97-01-10 09:32:05 EDT
From: MPWinstead
I just got a new AGS catalogue today and saw that they distribute the TONI-2 but the UNIT is not listed yet. Have you had experience with the TONI? How does it correlate with the WISC?
Thanks so much for your reply!!
SUBJECT: Re:Woodcock Johnson Achievem Date: 97-01-12 18:28:51 EDT
From: JABCDE
The basic skills score is not comparable to the broad score because they are
separate entities. Broad does not take into consideration the calculation
In CT, there must be a 15 point discrepancy between the Full Scale IQ score
and 1) a cognitive area, and 2) an area of academics. Therefore, if he has
a Full Scale IQ of 100, he would need to achieve a score of 85 or less in
both the cognitive and academic testing. Both are required. Jan
SUBJECT: LD
Cured? Life after Spec.Ed Date: 97-01-13 00:58:45 EDT
From: KingPCSD
My nine year old with LD and ADD has a truly gifted LD teacher, a treasure. He left first grade a non-reader, was placed in LD resource for second, third and now fourth grades. At the end of third grade, the teacher did an unofficial Woodcock-Johnson which showed overall reading at 7th grade, some subtests as high as 14th grade. His classroom teacher says he's reading with the pack, on or above grade level, but he's awfully distractible and doesn't complete homework, etc. He's also pretty weak in spelling, though if he studies (what a thought) he does fine.
Now in fourth grade, he's coming up for three year re-evaluation. I can't imagine how they'll be able to keep him in LD resource with test scores like this. Unless with the ADHD....?
How have other parents felt after leaving special education? Any ideas?
SUBJECT:
Re: LD Cured? Life after Spec.E Date: 97-01-13 02:42:10 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Now in fourth grade, he's coming up for three year re-evaluation. I can't imagine how they'll be able to keep him in LD resource with test scores like this. Unless with the ADHD...."
If you feel he will need the support for maintenance, because of the ADHD he
can be re-classified "Other Health Impaired" and retain an IEP.
SUBJECT: Re:LD
Cured? Life after Spec.E Date: 97-01-13 09:56:06 EDT
From: SusanS29
PS: LD's aren't ever "cured." The uneven learning style remains, but some things can happen that can ease their effects on the student.
Basic human development can help. Sometimes as new parts of the brain become fully myelinized and "on line," those parts (which "take executive charge of the brain") allow the child to tap into strengths he or she always had but couldn't fully use.
Remedial instruction can either establish the basics well enough that the child can compensate or eliminate the LD's effects in that subject, at least for the time being. (But, for instance, a child can be reading at grade level in fourth grade and encounter sometimes subtle reading difficulties in middle or junior high, when he or she is expected to extract significant emounts of important information from extbooks completely on his or her own).
The child may learn compensatory strategies.
If a child still shows a learning pattern in diagnostic tests that suggests learning disabilities-but academic performance isn't affected-the school district is obligated by federal law to drop that child from services. Even though the diagnosticians can clearly see that 18 months from now he or she will be having significant difficulties.
I have a child like this-clearly learning disabled, but able to compensate for them to a degree that she isn't eligible for direct services.
When a child has ADHD, the effects of the ADHD still make him or her eligible
for either "Other Health Impaired" or to have the IEP replaced by a 504
Our district's elementary team is currently looking for an achievement battery to replace the Woodcock Johnson-Revised. We would like something that would give us some more comprehensive information as related to what the children are doing in the classroom. We currently use the WJ-R along with the DTLA-3 and were wondering if anyone has experience using the new Diagnostic Achievement Battery (DAB) instead of the WJ-R? We are also considering the Gray Oral Reading test to further evaluate reading skills.
Does anyone have any suggestions, comments, or ideas? Thanks!!
SUBJECT:
clarify 504 Date: 97-01-18 21:41:26 EDT
From: Secondslp3
I have been impressed with the information in this folder regarding the
awareness of and advocacy for 504 educational services. It has been my
understanding that to be eligible for 504 services, there only needs to be
the suspicion of a learning disability. After a period of time, if the
adaptations are not sufficient to keep the student successful, then a campus
referral would be made to review student progress which may or may not
include a referral to special education (SE). In addition, I've also
understood that students with ADD/ADHD or any OHI (again, suspected or
identified), including students with broken legs/arms can be served 504 to
support academics, rather than automatically going to a SE referral/case
management. I've recently learned that ESL has a tie-in with 504 and I need
to find out more. Any clarifications or corrections of this information
would be appreciated and guide my understanding and interpretation of 504
"It has been my understanding that to be eligible for 504 services, there only needs to be the suspicion of a learning disability. "
Not really. If an LD is suspected the school is supposed to try some interventions before referring, but the law regarding special education and 504 are completely separate laws.
"I've recently learned that ESL has a tie-in with 504 and I need to find out more. "
I don't think so. 504 refers to disabilities. Being born speaking something
other than English is an inconvenience, but not a disability.
SUBJECT: thanks
for the clarify Date: 97-01-19 17:30:51 EDT
From: Secondslp3
Susan,
An ESL teacher had been discussing students receiving services under the "umbrella of 504" services. She and I both know the difference between 504 and SE, but I think I'll need to talk with her directly and quit eavesdropping. There may me a misperception on her part, and we'll both need to remain up-to- Date on 504 guidelines to ensure appropriate identifications. Thank goodness for all these general topic education boards, and in this case, specifically 504 board.
BTW, I do not hold the view that being born speaking a language other than English is an inconvenience, and I've never considered it a disability. That was not the teacher's or my basis for questioning available services; rather, that bilingual and multilingual students with suspected learning disabilities are sometimes more challenging in an advocacy situation when looking for appropriate interventions.
SUBJECT: Re:thanks for the clarify Date: 97-01-19 22:30:20 EDT
From: SusanS29
"That was not the teacher's or my basis for questioning available services; rather, that bilingual and multilingual students with suspected learning disabilities are sometimes more challenging in an advocacy situation when looking for appropriate interventions."
Absolutely. But when a child is considered to possibly have a learning disability, he or she is covered by IDEA. Essentially, rulings and judgements must be made on the assumption of LD until it's ruled in or out.
SUBJECT:
504/Aud. proc Date: 97-01-21 21:22:16 EDT
From: TLVAIL
I found a student in 7th grade who is being served under a 504 plan based on
the presence of an Auditory Processing Disorder. He was given a full psyc
but didn't qualify for any special ed. services. He was given a
speech/language eval. (CELF-3) and was found to have normal speech/language
skills. My concern- There is nothing in the file to document the presence of
an Auditory Processing defecit. Should I do an AP eval or continue under the
504 plan? If I do the eval and see no AP disorder, does this mean he can't
be served under the 504? If he does have an AP disorder, shouldn't he be
<<I found a student in 7th grade who is being served under a 504 plan based
on the presence of an Auditory Processing Disorder. >>
Maybe he would qualify under IDEA in the "other health impaired" category?
If not it should be possible to design a 504 plan to meet his needs.
Do your really think there is a chance that he does not have APD?
SUBJECT: IQ
scores over time Date: 97-01-24 10:41:06 EDT
From: Lmazzola
I have asked about the significance of a decline in full scale IQ scores over time in the past, but now I'm wondering, when we meet to discuss the latest evaluations, which FS IQ is considered to be the most valid? The original (and highest) or the latest (and lowest, by nearly 20 points)? The Verbal and Performance scores were greatly unbalanced in the beginning, in favor of performance. Now they are slightly unbalanced, in favor of performance. FSIQ's were 103 (3 1/2 years ago), 94 (in Feb. '96) and 83 (done by and independent evaluator in Dec. '96).
Can anyone enlighten me on the significance, if any, of these discrepancies?
My child is 11 years old, Dx'd adhd/expressive & receptive language LD's.
Thanks,
Lisa
SUBJECT: Language LD? Date: 97-01-24 13:44:08 EDT
From: Rossifish
I posted part of this question under Speech/Language but then found this board. My question(s) may be more appropriate here, sorry for the repetition.
I am looking for some clarification on testing scores. Unfortunately, the special ed case manager is absent from school for the next 6 weeks (cancer treatment) and I am at a loss.
My son is age 8, 2nd grade, receiving remedial services in math and reading since the beginning of 1st grade. Our school provides these services to children identified as being below the 30th percentile on the group achievement test administered in the spring. (I know, I know, they're useless!!) He has been evaluated through the school for ADHD and specific learning disabilities. The tests administered were WISC III and CBCL (for ADHD). There were statistical elevations on the CBCL indicating the possibility of ADHD, which the evaluator thinks he has, but recommended a full neuro workup to rule out other possibilities.
Scores are full Scale IQ of 104, verbal 102, performance 104 (on WISC III). He was also administered the Woodcock-Johnson (r) where his scores ranged from 80-90 (Dictation, writing samples, letter-word id, broad reading, broad written language, skills) to 110-136(science, calculation, social studies, humanities, broad math, broad knowledge). I don't know what the standard deviation on the WJ-R is supposed to be so these test score's meaning are unclear to me. It was explained to me that the "average" on both tests are in the 85-115 range. I was told by the pyschologist that administered the WISC that the standard deviation on that test is 15.
My son was later, at my request, evaluated specifically on language skills. He received a score of 87 on receptive language and a score of 79 on expressive language on the CELF-R test. The school has said it is not a specific learning disability because his scores are not below 75. ???? My state considers a student eligible for Spec Ed when individual achievement tests show a deviation of 1.5 compared to IQ test, at least if I have understood correctly. I am so confused. Hope someone can help.
I took him to a pediatric neurologist for complete workup relating to ADHD where I was informed that he did not agree with the ADHD diagnosis and thought I should stop worrying so much. His response to a score of 79 on expressive language was - "that's great"!!!!
Meanwhile, my son is far behind his peers, easily frustrated by writing and spelling (and very bad at them), does not consider himself a "real" reader and is beginning to not enjoy school. He does have a wonderful regular classroom teacher who "accomo Dates" his learning differences (at least to the extent that she and I can think of things that work), but it seems like there is more that I should do. We have Susan's book, Taming the Dragons, and have been using suggestions based on assumed (by me and the teacher) expressive language deficits.
Is it possible for any of you to help me dicipher the test scores? Any other suggestions for testing mechanisms? I have heard the TOVA mentioned, but know little about it. Thanks for any help you can give.
In my district, your son is borderline for qualifying for speech and language therapy. We use 1.5 standard deviation (scores of 78 and below) typically qualify although not a rule carved in stone. I wonder if any phonological awareness tests were given. The CELF-3 is the current language battery test but does not tap all areas of auditory processing such as segmentation of syllables and sequencing sounds in words. The TOPA, Test of Phonological Awareness, generally is not as sensitive to the skills taught in second grade and most kids show only a weakness (scores around 80). All of my students who are diagnosed with ADD have weaknesses with processing, either for directions, memory, or sounds in words. Informally, The Phonological Awareness Profile yields lots of information. If you feel there is still a problem of some sort with your child educationally (extreme slow or no progress), keep listening to your son and his teachers and don't stop asking questions. If his classwork is not on grade level (bring lots of written work), special education services can still be considered if your school's team identifies your son as "other health impaired" (ADD) instead of Learning Disabled.
Mithue, SLP
SUBJECT: Re:IQ scores over time Date: 97-01-26 03:28:26 EDT
From: PeterCB55
The most recent IQ scores would likely be considered the best indicator of your child's current level of functioning. The reason for this stems from the finding that the younger the child is at the time they complete the WISC-III or othe IQ tests, the less correspondance there is between that score and subsequent performance. The older the child is the greater the stability of the score over time. This makes sense from the perspective of brain development. Presumably most maturation has occurred around the 14 to 16 year range, which much remains to be developed in a 4-5 year old.
However the question of validity needs some clarification. I usually think of validity in terms of the question, "valid for what purpose", i.e., prediction, description, internal comparison, external comparison, for generating inferences (e.g., ecological validity). etc, etc. If you could say more about the intended use of the results then we can explore the question of validity for that purpose.
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: Re:IQ scores over time Date: 97-01-26 14:40:26 EDT
From: Lmazzola
<< If you could say more about the intended use of the results then we can
explore the question of validity for that purpose.>>
Valid in terms of comparing "cognitive ability" vs. "current performance". If the child's IQ scores keep decreasing how is one supposed to know what this child should actually be able to accomplish? Since these scores are the basis the school uses in determining services - along with the WJ-R.
If we were to go by the original WISC-III (FSIQ of 103) it would be safe to say that there was a HUGE gap between her cognitive potential and current academic performance, according to the rest of the evaluations. However, now with a FSIQ of 83, there is still a gap, but a smaller one. And the strengths and weaknesses have shifted from performance having been a strength to verbal being slightly higher than performance.
Gosh, does any of this make sense?? As a parent, I find this whole area extremely confusing. Especially since it seems to me, in my experiences, the school will interpret the findings one way according to the programs already in place, and outside "experts" another way.
Consequently, everyone has differing opinions on how best to "meet the needs" of this child. My own feeling, is that the appropriate services should fall somewhere between the insufficient services proposed by the school (Resource Room 2X per week, Tutor Monitor 4X per week - this is really just "curriculum support"- and removal from 1/2 year of Science & Social Studies- in order to make room in her schedule for the 4 X per week TM services) and the extreme, "self-contained class" recommendation of the independent evaluator.
SUBJECT: Question Date: 97-01-26 14:48:21 EDT
From: Frantztrow
My son was recently evaluated to qualify for untimed tests. He did very well on the verbal sections of the WISC-III. I have some questions about the scoring. His VIQ came out below his lowest subtest. Subtests ranged from 13 to 17, most closer to the high range. VIQ was 128. Does this make sense?
SUBJECT: Re:IQ scores over time Date: 97-01-26 19:20:00 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I'm wondering, when we meet to discuss the latest evaluations, which FS IQ is considered to be the most valid? The original (and highest) or the latest (and lowest, by nearly 20 points)?"
The latest one is the one to look at now, because children's intellectual functioning really can change significantly over a period of several years.
That's why the law requires re-testing to begin with.
SUBJECT: Re:IQ scores over
time Date: 97-01-26 22:19:41 EDT
From: CandaceK
What you need is a psychologist who will look at the exact items the child missed. Also, the instruments used: A child may score very differently on a Stanford Binet, A Wisc-R and some of the newer instruments. My son, for example, has a real strength in verbal expression, does beautifully on traditional IQ tests, but not as well on for example, the Kaufman ABC.
Also, as the newer editions of the old favorites are coming out, a lot of children seem to be scoring lower.
However, if the drop is on the same instrument (apples to apples), I WOULD WANT TO KNOW THE REASON WHY-is it poor instruction, some physical problem, WHAT?
SUBJECT: question Date: 97-01-27 08:35:57 EDT
From: Frantztrow
I wasn't very clear in my last message. My son has a NVLD and needs untimed
tests. His school, a very competitive place, is resisting. They would like
him to take less challenging courses. We had outside testing done and I'm
not sure that the school will accept it if they find any kind of error, so
I'm going over the report with a fine tooth comb. I need to make sure that
everything is in order.
SUBJECT: Re:question Date: 97-01-27 09:22:51 EDT
From: Ratatat
Extended time on tests is probably the single most needed and common accommodation provided to students on almost every test measure given. The College Board who administers the SAT is very willing to provide extended time on the SAT test for any student who has a disability that would require this accommodation.
I have a wonderful new book here by Sam Goldstein about ADD in teenagers and adults (written for practitioners). He has a whole section on the legal rights of individuals with ADD in schools and in the work place written by the two top special education lawyers in the country. Here's are the parts I love on this:
"Testing Modification and Accommodations
Education revolves around testing. Students spend their academic lives either being tested on their knowledge or acquiring the knowledge to be tested. Testing is used for admission, course completion, gradutation and expulsion. Testing modifications and accommodations are therefore of central importance to individuals with disabilities."
and
"Testing accommodations are required for individuals with disabilities unless the accommodations would alter the essential nature of the course material or create an undue [financial] hardship."
and
"Delivery of Course Materials
A right to testing modifications and accommodations would be meaningless if the student were prevented by a disability from acquiring the knowledge to be tested."
and then it goes on to say (based on a recent court case) - paraphrased:
1. a place of public accommodation [school] may not, alone, determine which aids and services (accommodations) are appropriate for a student with a disability 2. the aids and services (accommodations) provided must be effective in achieving the acquisition of knowledge necessary to allow for equal participation in the educational experience.
3. effectiveness is determined primarily by specific consideration of the
NEEDS of the student affected.
SUBJECT: Re:question Date: 97-01-27 10:16:59 EDT
From: Lmazzola
Ratatat:
Thanks for the reference, it sounds like it will be very helpful.
I don't know if he does or does not have an APD because there is no testing
information in the folder. That's why I want to start by giving him a full
eval and send him to an audiologist if needed. I guess I'm just concerned
that he's being served under the 504 when there's no documentation of the
disorder. Don't we need that?
SUBJECT: question Date: 97-01-27 19:04:30 EDT
From: Frantztrow
I agree, and I'd really like to read your book. Right now I'm concentrating
on doing everything I can to make sure that the untimed tests happen. I'm
told that we have a good case, but if the school system found any errors in
the testing, then that could send us back to square one. Is it possible to
go anywhere for a "second opinion" on a report?
SUBJECT: Re:question Date: 97-01-27 21:49:54 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<We had outside testing done and I'm not sure that the school will accept it
if they find any kind of error, so I'm going over the report with a fine
tooth comb. I need to make sure that everything is in order.>>
What do you mean if they find an error? Are they have the actual testing sheets worked on by your son reviewed (which they have no right to do, BTW). Are they having the test results and report reviewed by an equally cretentialed expert? On what basis/'criteria can the judge that there is an error? Are they planning to, willing to, re-evaluate your child? Were the evaluations done on your son conducted by someone who can support their methods? Let them speak for themselves.
Is this a private independent school? Or is it a parochial/religious school?
If it's a private independent school they are obligated to provide reasonable accommodations to your child if he has a diagnosed disability that is interferring with his ability to learn and be assess for what he's learned (express what he knows).
Remember, it's not how fast it knows it, but rather how well.
SUBJECT: Re:IQ
scores over time Date: 97-01-27 23:33:29 EDT
From: SusanS29
"However, if the drop is on the same instrument (apples to apples), I WOULD WANT TO KNOW THE REASON WHY-is it poor instruction, some physical problem, WHAT?"
Development normal for that child is the most likely explanation. It
happens.
SUBJECT: Question Date: 97-01-28 00:50:39 EDT
From: Frantztrow
I am in education and see testing results often, and these numbers are not
adding up for me. I am trying to avoid a battle with the school, that's
all. If an error was made, I don't think that it would be the end of the
world. I would just like to correct it before the school gets a hold of the
report.
SUBJECT: Re:Question Date: 97-01-28 11:00:59 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I am in education and see testing results often, and these numbers are not adding up for me."
I understand... but it does happen. If you have real questions about it, I
would recommending getting an evaluation done by a good pediatric
neuropsychologist. That is the person with the expertise to answer your
questions.
SUBJECT: Re:Question Date: 97-01-28 15:46:47 EDT
From: Ratatat
<< I would just like to correct it before the school gets a hold of the
report.>>
When my daughter was evaluated at the age of 7, I took her to the only expert group on learning disabilities around. The head of it was a well-known and respected pediatric neurologist and the educational psychologist was real a pioneer in the area of advocating for children with learning disabilities in the schools (this was in 1990 - one year before the new IDEA regulations).
The problem was that they were so used to dealing with parents in denial, parents who were not equipped to handle the advocacy, public schools that were non-compliant that they recommended that I place her in a private school just for children with LDs. And, the report reflected that. The report was couched in terms that were laden with disability vocabulary and pathology that it was depressing to read. They WAY over stated the situation and drapped all sorts of black crepe throughout the report. You see, that's what they'd had to do, usually, in order for a child to get close to any appropriate services.
A child psychologist I was working with, my husband and myself, and my daughter's tutor all objective to the language and to the degree they took their recommendations. We told them that there was no way we could use their report because they had over-stated the problem.
We asked them to re-write the report with more positive interventions and will less "pathology" to the vocabulary. Otherwise, it was not a document I could give to the school (this was a private school with no one on staff trained to read a report like that).
They did - we ended up with a report that was honest and accurate and truly served my daughter's needs.
Sorry to go on for so long, but I guess what I'm asking is - can you have the
report written so that it is truly a document that is helpful and won't cause
hinderences?
SUBJECT: Re:Question Date: 97-01-29 18:26:07 EDT
From: SusanS29
My daughter's report also contained some major inaccuracies, and we had no
trouble getting them corrected.
SUBJECT: Re:IQ scores over time Date: 97-01-30 04:19:46 EDT
From: PeterCB55
I would second Susan's opinion.
Scores from measures of intellectual ability that are sampled over time, (particularly among those with learning/attention problems) can show a gradual pattern of decline. This pattern is only rarely reflective of an "actual" decline or loss of previously learned ability, and most often associated with a decline in a students "relative" standing when compared to their agemates. This latter possibility is often due to two factors, first the increase in breadth and complexity of the problem solving skill related to aging among otherwise normal children, and second the increased efficiency with which children are expected to solve problems as they age. When repeat testing reveals a pattern of gradual decline, it may be useful to consider the more benign possibility first. Children with learning/attention problems show gains in knowledge, but, the gains they make sometimes occur more slowly relative to their agemates. This more gradual rate of increase, may show up on "age-normed" IQ/achievement scores in the form of a "gap" that widens over time when compared to the "average" for a given age. While there may also be other reasons for the "appearance" of a decline, the individual administering and interpreting the test, should try to provide you with some ideas about what factors might be worth looking into to figure out what's behind the scores (e.g., lagging skills in specific areas, a slow rate of increase etc. ) . A common example of a lag in growth occurs when "average" children by 10th grade are expected to handle fractions, decimals, geometry and basic algebraic equations, while a child with a learning disorder, is only just mastering long division that year. While that child with LD may have made great strides in their newly found mastery of division, they may look like they have declined when compared to peers who are expected to have mastered this plus other more complex forms of math. Unfortunately, only looking at the scores can create a misleading and necessarily an incomplete picture. I hope this helps.
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: Re:IQ scores over time Date: 97-01-30 08:01:13 EDT
From: Ratatat
Peter,
As usual, I'm so glad you visit the Special Education Forum boards and provide us with your insights, wisdom and clarity.
Thanks.
SUBJECT: Re:IQ scores over time Date: 97-01-30 10:33:24 EDT
From: Lmazzola
Thanks Susan, Ratatat & Peter:
Perhaps you could explain to me the purpose of using these IQ and achievement tests to measure the effectiveness of the services/programs the child is receiving. If, as you say, it does not give the whole picture, of what use are they?
If the basis of eligibilty is the discrepancy between "potential" and "actual" achievement and the measure of their "potential" isn't an accurate picture how does this make any sense?
It was my understanding, that if the interventions were "working" the child's achievement would "catch up" to their "potential to achieve". Thus, the reason for retesting every three years. Am I off-base here? Can you enlighten me??
Thanks,
Lisa
SUBJECT: Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-01-30 13:03:08 EDT
From: GypsyinPal
Most of the IEP's I've run report use grade-level scores ("reading at the 2.2 grade level) instead of standard scores or even percentiles (age or grade?) I know that grade scores are misleading. I need a "one-liner" to throw back at the principal explaining why. I also need to be able to tell him what the best way to report scores is.
Any help?? Thanks!
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-01-30 16:41:44 EDT
From: Lmazzola
<< I know that grade scores are misleading. I need a "one-liner" to throw
back at the principal explaining why. I also need to be able to tell him what
the best way to report scores is. >>
I have requested, but not always received, that they report them in all four ways:
percentile; standard score; age equivalent; grade
What I had noticed over the past is that they would report the scores
differently each year. Therefore, if you do not have the test protocols, you
could not do a comparison becuase you would need to convert to one method in
order to compare.
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-01-30 19:15:47 EDT
From: R u Niz
I report in standard scores and percentiles because I was taught that was the most accurate way to go. I also include information on actual class performance-as in, Johnny's actual performance in his reading group is better than his test scores would suggest because he is able to....
SUBJECT: Re:
WISC-III vs. TONI Date: 97-01-30 22:25:25 EDT
From: MarRigby
I have a student who on the WISC performed verbally at approx. 75, but demonstrates scores ranging from average to above average on the Performance scale. The IEP team decided that he was not eligible for Sp. Ed. services at that time. Then he was given the TONI, a strictly performance assessment requiring no verbal responses. He scored in the above average range on this assessment. Then the team decided that he did qualify for services. Now, he is still performing up to 2 1/2 yrs. below grade level in Reading and Language Arts. Now, based on his verbal IQ (which I realize is not etched in stone), hasn't he reached his potential in the above areas? I realize he could still fly in Math, and has great potential in the area of vocational ed. and later in the workplace in his chosen vocation. I know everyone is going to jump on me, but I'd like opinions, anyway. I'm definitely not saying that he shouldn't get remedial services, but does he really qualify for Sp. Ed. services???
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-01-31 01:16:59 EDT
From: PeterCB55
The reasons for reporting grade scores depends upon their intended use and also the audience. I tend to use "age based" standard scores because with "age based" scores the refence group is more homogenous. Grade scores can be made up of children with a range of three years. Children in second grade can be ages 7-8-and 9 respectively. Hence grade based scores may contain more "noise" in the sense that they reflect children drawn from three different years of development. Age based scores refer to children within a 12 month range and hence may be more similar to each other in ability.
Second, standard scores can be normed to either grade or age reference groups. It's not a standard scores vs. grade scores. The same thing is true for percentile scores, they can be normed by age or grade or both.
Finally, grade scores can really communicate when you want to reference abilities that are specific to one grade level. For example, for a child in the 6th grade to be reading at a 3rd grade reading level really says something, if you know the difference between a third grade reader and a sixth grade book. It's like the difference between the Berenstein Bears (no criticism intended) and the Island of the Blue dolphins.
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-01-31 10:27:30 EDT
From: Mars000210
Hello, and the team wonders why parents get upset at team meetings. Depending
on which meeting and who is presenting the scores and the norms used how can
a parent get a grip on if their child quialfies or not for services. I have
also sat a meeting where one year one set of norms were used and then the
next year the team used another set of norms.How could I be prepared to argue
my childs needs when I was using last years standard? Was I confused at
times. Just to let you know I could do that in my job also with my patients
too and leave them in the dark, but I don't I give them all sides of their
medical conditon and show them what all the testing mean including the
numbers and what they mean, even the different norms that can cause
differnces in there diagnosis. Without that understanding patients would not
make informed desisions ragarding there medical care. I don't think the teams
were deceptive just are so used to using the lingo and numbers that they
don't do a great job of transfering that information to parents in a
digestable form.
SUBJECT: Re: WISC-III vs. TONI Date: 97-02-01 01:36:00 EDT
From: PeterCB55
Your question is well worth it. The issue of whether your student has "achieved" up to the level of their potential/capability , appears to be based upon comparisons between scores on measures of reading (I presume) and their performance on a summary measure of the "verbal" subtests from the WISC-III. If the student has a language learning disability, then the scores on the "verbal" subtests from the WISC-III, are quite likely to be influenced in a negative fashion (i.e., lower) in part due to the impact of langage processing and/or expressive weaknesses. When examining "cognitive"capability with language impaired students many believe that it is wise to use measures that do not rely heavily upon verbal abilities or expressive skills. Instead emphasis is given to nonverbal measures of reasoning such as with the TONI, the Toni-comprehensive, the Ravens matrices, a receptive measure of vocabulary, (i.e., the PPVT-R) and/or the performance summary score fromt he WISC-III. These measures are belived to be less suscpetible to the negative impact of deficient language skills.
The other problem in using summary scores such as the Verbal summary score is that it represents an average of 5 subtests. However, individual subtest scores of a "16" on Information, and a "4" on Similarities, suggest unusual gaps in performance that will be washed out by the averaging process, obscuring the wide swings in abilities across individual subtests. This is a oncern when working with the WISC-III summary scores. While they can be really helpful, they may obscure subscale variations that often hold lots of valuable information regarding individual differences. To an extent, Kaufman in his most recent book titled "Intelligent Testing with the WISC-III" has addressed this question of interpretibility in great detail, and with a respect for clinical realities and may be worth a look.
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-02 00:33:07 EDT
From: KMDMAN
The way I report grade or age scores is to report the range of scores that correspond with plus or minus one standard error of measurement from the raw score. This effectively communicates that the test is not perfectly reliable and also shows how uninformative grade and age scores are. When you use the +/- one SEM, the grade scores can vary several grade levels with older children.
Stick to standard scores and percentile ranks. Or use normal curve equivalents, which put 99% of the kids on a scale of 1 to 99.
SUBJECT:
Re: Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-03 18:19:58 EDT
From: RRTeach
Using the standard scores allows for some meaningful comparison of achievement with IQ scores if the standard score uses the mean of 100. Usine percentiles is an easy way to relate information to parents in a meaningful way (RMI or RPI is also useful). Using grade equivs. can be somewhat misleading. The student in grade 2.5 who is reading on a 1.0 level is 1 1/2 years below level but is in signficant difficulty as compared with the student in grade 9.5 who is reading at an 8.0 level.
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs.
Standard Scores Date: 97-02-04 09:44:45 EDT
From: GypsyinPal
THANKS SO MUCH to all who responded (and continue to respond) to my question about grade vs. standard scores. I've gotten some excellent information. This board is such a wonderful resource for all of us.
Thanks again.
SUBJECT: ELigibilty for Language Date: 97-02-04 11:14:06 EDT
From: Mdmk19
I am a SLP in N.J. My district is establishing guidelines for students
eligible for language services. I administer the CELF-R and Test of Word
Knowledge. Passing score on CElf-R is 85. I donot look at individual
subtests to make diagnosis but rather composite scores. I would be
interested to hear from other SLP's regarding interpretation of Celf-r scores
and who qualifies for language services in your district. I also observe
students in classrooms and get alot of information from the teachers. Any
information would be greatly appreciated.
SUBJECT: Re:ELigibilty for Language Date: 97-02-04 20:42:34 EDT
From: Mithue
My district considers CELF -R invalid since there is a CELF 3 test. Of course, they did not buy all the schools the CELF 3 nor is there any budget for assessments. This applies to all tests which have an up Dated version.
There are many of us who only have the older tests. We use 1.5 standard
deviations (below 79) when compared to a suspected or known IQ of 100 to
determine a language disability. My problem here concerns the slow learners
with IQs of 70-80 and their language scores are commensurate with their
ability. We still have to use the ubiquious 100 IQ. I agree with you that
one subtest would not qualify a student; however, it does signify additional
testing in that area, either formal or informal.
SUBJECT: Testing and
assessment Date: 97-02-07 01:04:11 EDT
From: Lizzi96
I am looking for assessments of life skills attainment in disabled persons. For my masters' thesis, I am looking at the effectivness of life skills education for developmentally disabled persons. Any tests/assessments/curricula that fit this will be appreciated. Please e-mail to Lizzi96@aol.com.
Thank you!
SUBJECT: Re:IDEA and Specific LD Date: 97-02-07 08:16:31 EDT
From: SpedAdvoRN
In IDEA (300.541, 542 and 543) clearly explains how to evaluate a child suspected of having a Specifuc Learning Disability.
Most of the school systems I deal with have never heard of this requirement "The team shall prepare a written report of the results of the evaluation.
The report must include a statement of
1. Whether the child has a SLD
2. The basis for making the determination
3. The relevant behovior moted during observation
4. The relationship of the behavior to the child's academic functioning
5. The educationally relevant medical findings, if any;
6. Whether there is a discrepancy between the achievement and ability which
is not correctable without special ed. and related services
7. The determination of the team concerning the effects of environmental,
cultural or economic
disadvantage
Each team member shall certify in writing whether the report reflects his or her conclusion. If it does not reflect his or herconclusion, the team member must submot a separate statement presenting his or her conclusions.
In my state (MA) in some schools, there seems to be a reluctance to be tell
the truth to the parents. I always advise the parents to inform the school
sped. dept. that e consent for evaluation in is contingent upon all aspects
of the IDEA be sum and substance of the evaluations. Otherwise, why bother
with all of this in first place.
SUBJECT: Re:question Date: 97-02-09 00:31:00 EDT
From: DuPageFed1
Under IDEA, (child is in or being evaluated for special ed), the parents have the right to an independent evaluation-the school must accept it if the examiner is qualified under state standards. e.g. if the independent evaluator meets state standards as a licensed or certified psychologist or whatever, they must consider the evaluation in making decisions about the child.
So the question isn't if they agree with the findings, it's if the examiner is qualified to do what he or she is doing under state standards.
There are even times when the schools will have to pay for the outside evaluation. However, if you're getting into these areas, get solid advice from a lawyer who specializes in this area or some other expert.
SUBJECT:
Dyslexia Testing Date: 97-02-09 16:30:08 EDT
From: Pprize
I am a parent of a child whom I suspect has dyslexia. I live in Newark, NJ and am looking for a way to get him tested outside of the realm of the Board of Ed. Please email me if you have any info or advice at Pprize@aol.com.
Thanx!
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-09 21:50:53 EDT
From: Rayna
Grade equivalent scores really do not reflect what grade level curriculum a child has mastered, rather they indicate the school grade and month of that grade for which a given raw score is average or typical. Grade scores are not directly comparable across subtests, e.g., a reading grade equivalent of 3.2 and a math grade equivalent of 3.2 do not imply equal proficiency and do not usually have the same percentile rank. Also, the units are not equally spaced as in a normal distribution, so comparing grade equivalent scores of 3.2 to 3.4 is not necessarily the same as comparing GE of 3.0 to 3.2.
Standard scores and even percentiles are much easier to explain since they
have no "residue" of common sense understanding like grade equivalents
do!
SUBJECT: Re:question Date: 97-02-11 17:43:18 EDT
From: RRTeach
<<So the question isn't if they agree with the findings, it's if the examiner
is qualified to do what he or she is doing under state standards. >>
The question usually is not whether they agree with the findings, but whether
Best used for? Formal of informal? Standardization? cover what areas? What
does it mesure? Are results valid and reliable? Does the procedure evaluate
or diagnosis? Awhat stage should the procedure be used and why?
SUBJECT:
dysgraphia/testing Date: 97-02-20 18:50:44 EDT
From: GlynFP1
I have a 9 yr. old son who is in third grade. He has recently been approved for a complete evaluation because of a suspected learning disability in the area of written expression. I asked the members of the Child Study Committee which tests they would be using in his evaluation (and got the feeling that I was the only parent to ever ask the question!) I was told by the psychologist that she uses either Weschler or Stanford Binet, but would probably use Stanford Binet for my son. They will also use Woodcock Johnson. In our first meeting I thought I heard them mention TOWL which, from what I read on these boards, is a good test to use for my son's particular problems. However when I mentioned that yesterday I realized by their reaction that I had been mistaken. They said they would evaluate him in written expression but it wasn't clear to me what tests they would be using.QUESTIONS: Why would someone choose the Stanford Binet over Weschler? Are the tests chosen on a case by case basis? I suppose I expected and wanted Weschler because I am familiar with it and I like that everything is broken down into individual subtests and scores. Will S-B do the same? Also, are there other tests that reliably test written expression besides TOWL?
the Stanford-Binet Scales of Intelligence - 4th ed, is standardized measure of intellectual ability with a long and well established track record. Rather than try to second guess your committee, I would simply call and or meet with the school psychologist, and ask them to explain the reasons for test selection to you. There is little mystery in the process, but they should be able to explain in understandible terms what the tests measure, why they have selected one over the other (e.g., with SB-4 vs. the WISC-III), and what the strengths and limitations of each measure , as well describe their expectations regarding the use of each measure. Similarly, written output can be measured in many ways, and formal testing is but one. Again have them explain it. There is no reason to expect less.
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: Re:IQ scores over time Date: 97-02-23 13:53:03 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Perhaps you could explain to me the purpose of using these IQ and achievement tests to measure the effectiveness of the services/programs the child is receiving."
IQ tests do not and acnnot be used to measure the ffectiveness of the services/programs.
Every year, however, your child's academic progress should be measured.
This progress needs to be compared over time (sometimes graphing it is helpful) to see what gains are being made. Comparing one year to the next may not be terribly accurate but over several years it will be. You need to use the standard scores, not the grade equivalents which are "derived" on most tests, and terribly misleading.
Then that academic performance needs to be compared to the child's intellectual potential.
So if you have an LD student with an IQ of 100 who only gains about 1/4 academically each year compared to a non-LD student, you can safely say the school's interventions aren't effective. At 1/2 the gains of a student I would consider this a failure for all but the most severely LD students, but some might only make that much of a gain even in the best LD school in the country. If the child learns 3/4 of what other students are learning, it will be tough to prove that the school isn't doing the best it can, as it's recognized that special education often cannot guarantee a full year's academic progress.
It's a judgment call. And... if the child's overall potential is not at or
near average (lower than average), then that will also be a factor explaining
less than a year's progress in a year.
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-23 13:57:11 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Most of the IEP's I've run report use grade-level scores ("reading at the 2.2 grade level) instead of standard scores or even percentiles (age or grade?)
I know that grade scores are misleading. I need a "one-liner" to throw back at the principal explaining why. I also need to be able to tell him what the best way to report scores is. "
They're "extrapolated."
On individual measures of achievement they may test children who are really in second grade fourth month, and third grade fourth month. Then they use a graph and plot eight points inbetween those two established bench marks and arbitrarily assign numbers to each month where normative testing wasn't done.
For group achievement tests it's even worse, because it's only normed on second grade. Any GE except the two months the test is normed is a guess. IN ADDITION, ANY GE above or below second grade is a total guess.
Standard scores, on the other hand, are based on the actual questions the child got right or wong.
But standard scores are harder to understand. All teachers have to take some
sort of "educational psychology" which covers all this stuff, but since it's
so rarely used it tends to go in one ear and out the other. We think we
understand grade scores by comparison.
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-23 13:57:34 EDT
From: SusanS29
"What I had noticed over the past is that they would report the scores differently each year. Therefore, if you do not have the test protocols, you could not do a comparison becuase you would need to convert to one method in order to compare."
Just ask them.
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-23 14:02:42 EDT
From: SusanS29
"For example, for a child in the 6th grade to be reading at a 3rd grade reading level really says something, if you know the difference between a third grade reader and a sixth grade book. "
Ah, Peter, I finally disagree with you on something.
When a sixth grader receives a GE in the third grade range, all it tells you is that his reading is significantly depressed. The GE given is a *complete guess* statistically and really shouldn't be used to make any kind of educational decision.
In such a case it's crucial to do an indepth analysis of the child's reading skills.
In sixth grade, all sorts of things will cause such a low score, probably as "comprehension" if it's a group achievement test, because they don't even test phonics by sixth grade (the tests reflect the curriculum. They're not diagnostic, and don't cover skills no longer taught at that grade level).
The problem is rarely comprehension per se but lack of skills that result in poor comprehension-if you can't read it, you can't comprehend it. Solve the reading problem, and you solve the comprehension problem, almost always (note the "almost"-smile.)
The only useful place for grade norms are on the few tests which actually did the normative data based on GE's-the KeyMath comes to mind as one test constructed that way. It's unusual.
GE's have to be ignored on group achievement tests. Even the percentiles are
extrapolated at the extremes.
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-23 20:19:25 EDT
From: Bre5
Susan,
I am trying to get more info about the DRP reading test. I posted something in the Reading folder, but since I didn't get a response, maybe this is the right folder. My 3rd grade son just got his DRP (a test of comprehension-Degrees of Reading Power) results and it is 28, below even minumim competency for 3rd grade. The yeqr end goal for 3rd graders is DRP 42 (minimum competency is 32), but they put in his report that his "goal" for the end of the year would be 33. However, nothing special in the way of instructio or tutoring is planned to help him reach this goal, other that the regular reading group time, in a group of 15 students.
When a student is below "minimum competence", what is it reasonable to ask
the school to do about it? I think he needs tutoring or remedation, but there
isn't any offered in our school, just pull-outs to help him complete assigned
work. Shouldn't he have actual remedial reading instruction or tutoring,
instead of just help to complete an assignment?
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard
Scores Date: 97-02-23 21:01:54 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Shouldn't he have actual remedial reading instruction or tutoring, instead of just help to complete an assignment?"
I'm not familiar with that test, but just because a student is a little below
grade level doesn't automatically mean the school has to provide any kind of
remedial services. Unfortunately. If he isn't eligible for help at school,
you might look to a reading clinic at a university-if there's one near
you. Those with reading clinics usually have very good ones, and they
usually have sliding scale fees.
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-24 10:27:12 EDT
From: Bre5
I don't understand why a school doesn't have to provide remedial services. At what point should they? Does he have to be a certain number of years behind in reading level? I'm just trying to figure out why they would set a goal of a higher reading level by the end of the year for my son if they don't plan to do anything special to reach that goal.
Eileen
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-26 17:47:01 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I don't understand why a school doesn't have to provide remedial services.
At what point should they?"
It depends on how your state's rules for eligibility are written.
"Does he have to be a certain number of years behind in reading level? I'm just trying to figure out why they would set a goal of a higher reading level by the end of the year for my son if they don't plan to do anything special to reach that goal."
It's possible that this is where they expect him to be without any help.
Which would make it a prediction (passive) not really a goal (active involvement implied).
I don't blame you for being confused.
Parents can have their child tested in Missouri and be told "She's severely learning disabled in the area of math, and we recommend three hours a week of extra help in this area."
Then they could move to New York and be told "She's just fine-what are you worried about."
The difference? This hypothetical child is very bright. Missouri takes intellectual potential into the formula, and New York does not.
SUBJECT:
Re: Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-26 18:25:53 EDT
From: Bre5
I live in New York and that's what I'm being told (He's doing OK, don't
worry, etc.). I just found out today that the DRP score of the books he has
had in reading group are WAY above his reading level. No wonder I have to
spell out the answers to the comprehension questions! Shouldn't his reading
group book just be slightly above his level, not so far he is lost? Today I
talked about it casually with a reading teacher in the school (I work there,
too) and when I expressed concern that he wouldn't be able to pass the NY
state 3rd grade reading test next month, she said it "didn't matter because
he is special ed and his score won't count".!!! She meant in the numbers the
school will show to the public for how many of their students passed or
failed the test. It doesn't seem to matter to anyone that It's not OK with me
that he won't pass. No one seems to have any suggestions about what I should
- testing or tutoring or just more reading at home.
Ask if you can visit the sp. ed. school they are considering for your son.
This way you can view the program for yourself. Possibly he needs to have
(more) time in a resource room in his current high school so that he can
have help completeing assignments from this reg, classes. He has a right to
be in the least restrictive environment- whatever that means for his
particular needs is debatable. He's got to develop study skills and ind.
discipline to make it in college. Seems like whichever environment can help
to foster this would be a good match for him. I recommend any program that is
strong in the arts- dance, music, painting, clay, knitting, chess, where ADHD
children often find a source of centering and focus which then extends into
their academic pursuits.
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-27 12:12:55 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I live in New York and that's what I'm being told (He's doing OK, don't worry, etc.). I just found out today that the DRP score of the books he has had in reading group are WAY above his reading level. No wonder I have to spell out the answers to the comprehension questions! Shouldn't his reading group book just be slightly above his level, not so far he is lost?"
Actually it should be at his instructional reading level. That's what "instructional reading level" means. A child cannot learn to read well from books above his instructional reading level.
"... when I expressed concern that he wouldn't be able to pass the NY state 3rd grade reading test next month, she said it "didn't matter because he is special ed and his score won't count".!!! She meant in the numbers the school will show to the public for how many of their students passed or failed the test."
I think what she meant was that his scores will be included, but since he has a learning disability, the test won't be used to make educational decisions about him. That's appropriate. For an LD student, only individualized tests should be used.
But since he's in special ed (he has an IEP, right?) you must INSIST that his reading instruction be done AT HIS INSTRUCTIONAL LEVEL. Anything else is completely challengeable. That's just a GIVEN.
I'm not concerned about whether he passes the third grade test or not. If
he's LD in reading I don't see how he could. I am VERY concerned if he is
classifed LD, has an IEP,and yet isn't being taught reading on his
instructional level. If that's the case, then that's where you should be
focusing your concerns.
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-27 18:38:06 EDT
From: R u Niz
No, Susan---Some districts "code out" the special ed students when a
schoolwide standardized test is given. That way, when the school's progress
is being measured, the special ed kids' scores don't impact. The student's
still get a report of their scores-which is important-but the school
doesn't have to worry about those scores "bringing down the average". I
don't know if this is done everywhere-but I know it is done where I am and I
think the previous poster was referring to this. The problem is, the
teachers should still be concerned about those scores. If the scores don't
matter, why are the Sp-Ed students subjected to the tests?
SUBJECT: Special Ed
scores counting Date: 97-02-27 20:27:18 EDT
From: PirateSmil
I teach Special Ed. elementary in Texas. We have a state wide test that is given to all 3-11th graders, 11th graders having to pass it before they can graduate. Sp. Ed. students can be exempted from this per ARD. The ones who do take it are not counted in with the other students in regular ed. This does help the scores of the school - however this will not be in effect in 98-99. EVERYONE who takes this test will count. I'm sure that will make mainstreaming our children a little more difficult as teachers will not want these scores counted against them. Right now there is talk of using a teacher's test scores as an indication of how well she teaches. Pretty sad huh?
As a special ed. teacher we are encouraged to have as many children as possible take the test. I agree that they should take it under most circumstances because they may not always qualify and will need that exposure to the test.
It's pretty scary that the really great teachers in inner city schools and
other low socio-economic areas will be penalized for wanted to teach these
kids. I hope the educators of Texas stand up and raise hell about this. I
know I'm going to!
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-28 01:45:27 EDT
From: SusanS29
"No, Susan---Some districts "code out" the special ed students when a schoolwide standardized test is given. That way, when the school's progress is being measured, the special ed kids' scores don't impact. The student's still get a report of their scores-which is important-but the school doesn't have to worry about those scores "bringing down the average"."
They really shouldn't do that unless the test was administered under special
circumstances-for instance, untimed, or with all items except reading read
to the student.
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-28 09:29:40 EDT
From: GypsyinPal
<<Some districts "code out" the special ed students when a schoolwide standardized test is given.... The student's still get a report of their scores...but the school doesn't have to worry about those scores "bringing down the average".
That is also the way it is done in my county. Is this legal??
SUBJECT: Re:Grade
Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-02-28 23:18:15 EDT
From: LorBis
My school does not count the scores of the special ed students, regardless of
whether they take the test under special circumstances, such as untimed,
having the test read to the student, etc. They also don't include the scores
of the ESL students.
SUBJECT: DRP scores & use Date: 97-03-01 00:36:31 EDT
From: Bre5
SusanS29 said:
"I'm not concerned about whether he passes the third grade test or not. If he's LD in reading I don't see how he could. I am VERY concerned if he is classifed LD, has an IEP,and yet isn't being taught reading on his instructional level. If that's the case, then that's where you should be focusing your concerns."
Thanks, Susan. That is what I've been thinking. My son has been in reading groups reading books way too hard for him ever since 2nd grade. He is definitely reading books above his instructional level. If the DRP test is used as a basis for choosing books (which it is in our school) his instructional level is between 28 and 32 (his independent level is 20). The last 2 books he had in his reading group each had a DRP of 52! Now I I guess I'll have to talk to the principal and see if a new reading group can be formed for kids with lower DRP scores. I am upset because he has now lost a lot of time and is so far behind. I literally had to re-read the book to him each night for which he had homework comprehension questions to write, then help him read the question, find the section with the answer, and re-read that section again to him. After I pointed this out a couple of times to teachers, they stopped sending his questions home and helped him finish in class. I wonder how often he was just told the answer to write down without any comprehension.
For those of you not familar with DRP (Degrees of Reading Power) it is a well regarded test that tells you what students can read with different amounts of help, from reading independently to the hardest book the student should read. Hundreds of books have been given a DRP level. To get more information I found an overview at the following web page:
http://www.tasa.com/over6.htm
and
http://www.tasa.com/over9.htm
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-03-01 00:40:27 EDT
From: Bre5
"No, Susan---Some districts "code out" the special ed students when a schoolwide standardized test is given. That way, when the school's progress is being measured, the special ed kids' scores don't impact."
Yes, that is what our school district does. (I think it's statewide.) That
way a school is not penalized, with poor scores as a school, for taking a lot
of special ed students. I wonder if my son would get more help if he was not
special ed?
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-03-01 19:07:43 EDT
From: PeterCB55
Susan,
Well, I guess it was bound to happen someday :)
Your point is well taken, and on review I believe that I failed to clarify several points suggested in the quotation that you responded to regarding Grade equivalent scores vs. age-based scores.
I agree with you as to the the limitations related to the use of grade scores, they have value, but , not in the assessment of learning problems per se.
I believe that they hold some value when used for "descriptive" purposes to clarify the difference between for example, what is typical of a 3rd grade curriculum and a 6th grade curriculum. In any case, when a score is significantly depressed, it warrants closer scrutiny, not just from the perspective that a "learning" problem can/could/or should be inferred, but from the perspective that it serves as a starting point to focus further investigative efforts. In general, they (Grade Equivalent Scores) are not considered standard of practice, yet I continue to see them listed in summary reports not infrequently ( I am not sure why).
On another point, your comment, about "the problem rarely (being) comprehension per se, but a lack of skills that results in poor reading-if you can't read it, you can't comprehend it."
My sense is that your claim regarding the importance of basic reading problems as a factor in subsequent comprehension difficulties is applicable for those children who have core phonic's decoding problems. However, many children with (gasp) primary attention problems can and do master the mechanics of reading without undue stress and strain, but, in the middle elementary years focus so much energy on the "task" of word-reading and on performing that task proficiently (perhaps because it is tedious) that comprehension suffers. Comprehension may also suffer due to a factor identified by an online forum host a while back (quite aptly I might add ). They pointed out that children with ADD may master the mechanics of reading but fail to organize or retain the language concepts contained in the text because they have trouble with selection and discrimination (i.e., sorting out the important from the unimportant parts).
Regards
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-03-02 23:12:15 EDT
From: SusanS29
"In general, they (Grade Equivalent Scores) are not considered standard of practice, yet I continue to see them listed in summary reports not infrequently ( I am not sure why). "
I think it's because people think they understand them. They think, for instance, that if their child tests out on a "fourth grade level" in reading in first grade that their child should be in fourth-grade level books.
Well, in first grade I tested at "fourth grade level" in reading. The school (a very small town) had no idea what to do with me, so the teacher put me in gradually harder books to read, which I would discuss with her afterwards. (Talk about lucky! Can you imagine the schools setting their basals and workbooks aside today?)
I raced through the first ones, and really liked the ones on the third grade level. Then she gave me a fourth-grade level book. I could read it, but I didn't like it. Emotionally the content was just too mature. So they dropped back.
That's how I was taught to read through fourth grade (until I moved) -- through conferencing.
"Fourth grade level" didn't mean I should suddenly be thrown into fourth
grade books. It did of course mean there was not much point putting me in the
pre-primer. :)
SUBJECT: Re:Grade Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-03-02 23:18:56 EDT
From: SusanS29
"My sense is that your claim regarding the importance of basic reading problems as a factor in subsequent comprehension difficulties is applicable for those children who have core phonic's decoding problems."
No, not exactly.
"However, many children with (gasp) primary attention problems can and do master the mechanics of reading without undue stress and strain, but, in the middle elementary years focus so much energy on the "task" of word-reading and on performing that task proficiently (perhaps because it is tedious) that comprehension suffers."
Yes... but that isn't a "comprehension" problem. It's a skill problem. They can't read the material easily, so comprehension drops. Put them in easier material, and they comprehend just fine. If you focus on the comprehension without building up the skills they struggle with, you've got the cart before the horse.
"Comprehension may also suffer due to a factor identified by an online forum host a while back (quite aptly I might add ). They pointed out that children with ADD may master the mechanics of reading but fail to organize or retain the language concepts contained in the text because they have trouble with selection and discrimination (i.e., sorting out the important from the unimportant parts). "
Was that me by any chance? I've said that many times. Again, though, that's not a comprehension problem, because you can teach these kids pretty easily how to pick out the important stuff. My own daughter-the one who will be majoring in medieval literature and medieval history in college next year- was like that in sixth grade. She could read the social studies book (now a subject of GREAT strength for her, btw) -- couldn't read her sixth grade social studies book and make any sense of it. And her reading scores were off the charts when it wasn't "content reading."
I gave her colored markers (five different colors) and a photocopy of a chapter. She used one color to highlight new names, another for new Dates, a third for important concepts (Declaration of Independence) -- etc.
She only had to do that once because she already had very strong reading skills. Her grades shot up to A in social studies and lots of other good things followed.
So that wasn't a "comprehension" problem. She understood what she was
reading. She wasn't sorting and storing the information in her brain in any
logical system, so she didn't remember it after she'd read it.
SUBJECT: Adaptive
Behavior Date: 97-03-03 23:12:48 EDT
From: BBW Woman
I am a member of a multi-disciplinary Pupil Appraisal Team. To measure adaptive behavior, we generally give the Vineland Adpative Behavior Scales.
The problem come when students have orthopedic or medical conditions which
invali Date the Vineland results. For example, I am currently working with a
child with spina bifida. She loses points for items such as being toilet
trained, standing independently, running smoothly, etc. Fine motor as well
as gross motor and daily living skills are involved. Does anyone know of a
test of adaptive behavior which has norms for children in wheelchairs and/or
with various medical diagnoses? Your help will be appreciated.
SUBJECT: Re:Grade
Vs. Standard Scores Date: 97-03-04 00:16:38 EDT
From: Lmazzola
But Susan, that makes just too much SENSE! It couldn't possibly be done in a widespread manner :-)
I fail to understand, how a school system can "track" their students in reading & math throught he elementary school and then BAM, all of a sudden in Middle school, they are "magically" readin on grade level or higher. Yet all through elementary school their report cards read, "below grade level reading" or math.
And another thing, when are these kids taught how to study, or take notes? It doesn't happen in the lower grades, everything is structure and sequenced for them already. However, again, in middle school, they are supposed to KNOW how to study and take notes?
Is it just me, or are there other parents who face the same issues? I find that I'm the one that suggests that they keep a notebook or piece of paper inside their book, so as they come to important info, names, Dates etc, they can jot them down, etc.
SUBJECT: acheivement tests & spec ed Date: 97-03-04 12:06:15 EDT
From: Bre5
As already discussed I'm fairly sure that my son will fail the NY State 3rd grade reading test, a type of cloze (fill in the blank) kind of test. Now I'm starting to think he will fail the math test, too, because of reading. He has been bringing home sample questions to work on, and they are all word problems and practical applications of math. So, reading will keep him from doing the math. Can the test questions be read to him one by one, or is this defeating the purpose of the testing?
For instance, last night he has a queston that asked how much is 2 half dollars, 2 quarters, 3 dimes, and 4 nickels? He quickly saw the numbers, didn't read question, and wrote down 2+2+3+4 and then chose the answer of $11.00 because that is the only number (11) that matched what he had added.
When I had him actually add the coins he could get the correct answer. But
the whole test is like this, and I feel like his reading will get in the way
of seeing if he knows the math. What do you think?
SUBJECT: Re:acheivement tests
& spec Date: 97-03-04 17:58:21 EDT
From: GlynFP1
I will be curious to see the responses to your post. My son is currently being evaluated for a possible learning disability in written expression. This month, all 3rd graders take a form of a Literacy Passport Test, most of which is written. His teacher already told me she didn't think he would do very well on it. What is the point of testing him? We know he has problems with writing. This test will only frustrate him and make him feel worse than he already does. He does very well on standardized tests that don't involve writing. Can we opt out of these tests? He doesn't have an IEP and hasn't gone through the evaluation yet so he doesn't "officially" have a ld.
Simple, if the test is testing reading mainly with answers given in writing, have them test him using a secretary to take dictation for him or a tape recorder to record his answers. If it is mainly a test of writing ability and he doesn't have problems with composition orally, only the process of pencil and paper, the secretary approach is also good. These approaches have worked well for our son.
SUBJECT: What do these mean? Date: 97-03-09 23:39:05 EDT
From: Frenchey1
WISC- verbal 120, performance 80, overall 93. He is 7 years old in 2nd grade.
What do these mean?
Thanks
Irene
SUBJECT: Re:What do these mean? Date: 97-03-10 11:29:51 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<
WISC- verbal 120, performance 80, overall 93. He is 7 years old in 2nd
grade.>>
It means that his overall IQ is average. It indicates, because of the 40 point discrepancy between his verbal IQ and his performance IQ that he probably has a learning disability. The specific subtests of the WISC should provide clues as to his weak areas. Further testing should indicate the specific area of learning disability.
Whoever conducted this testing should have also completed achievement tests, like the WIAT, at the same time. Did they?
And, they should have taken the time to fully explain the results to you in a way that you can understand what they mean. You need to return to this person and ask for an explanation in plain English of these results.
Were any recommendations made for your child's educational programming?
SUBJECT:
Re: What do these mean? Date: 97-03-10 12:19:57 EDT
From: SusanS29
It means that his verbal skills are markedly higher than his performance skills... so different that the "full scale" should be IGNORED.
Any time anyone is looking at this child's potential, they should use the verbal score and ignore the performance.
SUBJECT: Re:What do these mean? Date: 97-03-10 12:24:22 EDT
From: SusanS29
"<<
WISC- verbal 120, performance 80, overall 93. He is 7 years old in 2nd
grade.>>
It means that his overall IQ is average."
It really doesn't in this case. It means that would would normally be the overall IQ has been significantly distorted by the discrepant skills, and should be ignored.
That's really important. My daughter has the same sort of pattern. Because everyone has looked at her verbal score (137) she has been viewed as very bright, not average. She took AP history last year and got a 5 on the national test. She isn't average in any way-she's a person with significant strenghs as well as significant weaknesses.
To accept the full scale score as any kind of indication of this student's potential would be like taking ten people's income-five earning $10,000 and five earmomg $110,000 -- and concluding that all of them made about $50,000.
If you then did financial planning (the equivalent of educational planning) for these people, it wouldn't suit anyone's needs.
SUBJECT: Re:What do these mean? Date: 97-03-10 14:10:52 EDT
From: Frenchey1
Thank you Ratatat and Susan for responding.
WISC: verbal 120, performance 80, overall 93.
<"Whoever conducted this testing should have also completed achievement
tests, like the WIAT, at the same time. Did they?">
They told me they did achievement tests. Do not know yet whether is was WIAT.
<"Were any recommendations made for your child's educational programming">
The team will be meeting shortly to discuss the results of his tests and recommendations. I would like to go into this meeting with as much understanding of these tests as possible. I would like to add: my son is 7 and has had an IEP since he was 3. He has apraxia (oral, fine, and gross), low muscle tone, poor balance, dysgraphia, attention difficulties. He does have an OT in school. He had a SLP for 5 years and he was dismissed. His speech is incredible, although he does still have oral motor difficulties. He sees an OT outside of school for SI therapy and he is enrolled in a horseback riding program for his postural instability and balance.
He is in a regular 2nd grade and has been having trouble with reading, math, spelling. They already modify for his dysgraphia, although probably not enough. He is also sent to a resource room x 2 a week. They did the testing last week and like I said we will be meeting shortly to discuss recommendations. I have requested there be a paraprofessional in the room to help the teacher with modifications. This was ok'd and they are currently interviewing.
Kevin has so many areas of difficulty, I have many questions on whether they can properly modify for him. I am worried about him. He is a very bright child and a sweetheart.
Thank you for your time
Irene
SUBJECT: Re:What do these mean? Date: 97-03-10 17:25:51 EDT
From: Lmazzola
Susan:
What a GREAT analogy. It clearly illustrates the point!
Lisa
SUBJECT: Re:What do these mean? Date: 97-03-10 22:10:47 EDT
From: MarRigby
All:
Could someone please tell me how the WIAT compares with the PIAT-R? Also what is a better and more informative Reading test to give instead of the WRMT-R?
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:What do these mean? Date: 97-03-11 21:07:31 EDT
From: Luvcwsteps
it was interesting to scan these messages. As a high school sp teacher, I am required to test the students in my class at the end of every year and report the scores on the IEP. I have reported the standard scores, percentiles and ge's for years. During the conference, we discuss what could have effected the scores ( they can't use the calculator, they were having a bad day, attitude was negative, a disruption occurred with another student....). The students are most interested in the ge's and I'm not sure how many really understand the other scores. I also find that these vary greatly from test to test. We started with the WRAT and now give the NEAT. I also feel that many of my students may be coded out of the testing that gets reported to the state or the newspapers for the school's "grade or reputation". I have learned that scores are just that...scores. Like labels they have some information that can be inparted to the instructor but should not be a ceiling or box to contain the child. As a high school teacher, I too an amazed that students come to me not knowing HOW to read a text book, how to show their math work so that I can show them where they are making their mistake, how to organize a basic 11 sentence paragraph.......did some one along the way tell them they had to save trees, not waste paper so everything has to be figured out in their heads? I'm a visual learner and I have to tell juniors and seniors that it is alright to figure things out on paper. By the way most of my juniors and seniors still don't know what their strong modality of learning is or what their strengths and weaknesses are. Makes it hard to create independent learners with strong advocasy skills. Oh the joys and mysteries of teaching.
SUBJECT: Re:What do these mean? Date: 97-03-12 01:10:53 EDT
From: SusanS29
"WISC: verbal 120, performance 80, overall 93."
Insist that they plan looking at the 120, not the 93 which is meaningless in
this case.
SUBJECT: WISC III Intelligence Ranges Date: 97-03-12 13:11:11 EDT
From: GATORRW
I have several questions about testing, so have listed them below:
1. What range of intelligence scores as reported on the WISC III would be considered to fall in the "gifted" range?
2. If a child with a language based learning disability were tested using the WISC III and the TONI, which would be considered the most accurate in terms of ability?
3. What is the significance of an exceptionally low score on the Coding subtest of the WISC ?
4. What test(s) would you recommend to test a child's written language skills? Our district is currently using the WIAT and the guide states that it is not a reliable instrument to use to assess in this area.
I would greatly appreciate answers to the following questions:
1. Our district assessment department has recently replaced use of the Woodcock Johnson Revised (WJR) achievement test with the Weschler Individual Achievement Test (WIAT). It has come to my attention that the WIAT is under fire because it is not co-normed and because the oral and written expression subtests are extremely subjective. It also has a huge variance in SEM (40 points from high to low).
a. Has validity been formally questioned? If so, where could I find a published copy of the concerns?
2. Why would WISC III full scale IQ results be 20 to 30 points below
cognitive ability scores from the WJR Test of Cognitive Abilities and
the CoGat (ITBS cognitive abilities group test). It seems to me that
although some differences are to be expected, this may be indicative of an invalid WISC III score.
Thanks!
P.S. I posted some of these questions in January, but never received a clear reply. Please feel free to e-mail me: GATORRW@AOL.COM.
SUBJECT: Re:WISC III Intelligence Range Date: 97-03-12 18:49:56 EDT
From: SusanS29
"1. What range of intelligence scores as reported on the WISC III would be considered to fall in the "gifted" range? "
Depends on the school district. In some school districts loaded with lower-functioning students it might be 120.
In some districts it's 130, but my personal opinion is that that number is too low.
There is no "law" stating what "gifted" is, and more should go into it than IQ anyway.
For Written Expression I prefer the TOWL.
SUBJECT: Re:What do these mean? Date: 97-03-13 04:40:24 EDT
From: PeterCB55
How does the Wiat compare to the Piat R.
Well they are comparable in so much as they are both purporting to evaluate basic academic achievment skills. However, they are different in some of the ways each of these respective measures chooses to assessspefic aspects of core achievement skills that they deem relavent. For example, The WIAT assesses math skills in two ways, first with a word-problem type task and second with a formula type math task. The Piat-R presents the problem orally and then asks you to pick the correct response. The samples of children are different, but both are age- stratified. The WIAT was also reportedly cross vali Dated with the WISC-III on a subsample of children from their national norming sample, implying that there scores can be related in some meaninful ways statistically speaking to the WISC-III. The time to administer basic skills measures (e.g., math, reading and written expression) is roughly the same, and some of the measures appear to be similar, (e.g., bot examine written expression via a creative writing sample in response to a story stimulus), while other features are different.
I believe the differences may lie not so much in the external elements of each battery as it will lie in the ability and skill of the user, to draw meaningful inferences from the qualitative as well as quantitative data generated by each measure.
SUBJECT: Re:What do these mean? Date: 97-03-13 16:07:07 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I believe the differences may lie not so much in the external elements of each battery as it will lie in the ability and skill of the user, to draw meaningful inferences from the qualitative as well as quantitative data generated by each measure. "
Yes! When time and money permit (school districts can't always do it), educational examiners will use subtests from several tests on the same skill -- for instance, the math section on the WRAT can be very useful even though I don't like the test as a whole-because it requires computation of a wide variety of problems. But it doesn't do word problems, and it won't get to whether the child understands math concepts even though calculation is weak (and that does happen).
Some reading tests use "cloze" techniques-that is, leaving one word out, which the student must guess based on the context-like this:
After the children hooked up the _____ to the water faucet, they ____ the wading pool.
That's only one kind of reading comprehension. A child might do well on that and yet still have trouble reading his social studies book because he has trouble with longer passages and new vocabulary.
SUBJECT: Re:What do these mean? Date: 97-03-13 17:22:48 EDT
From: Lmazzola
<<for instance, the math section on the WRAT can be very useful even though I
don't like the test as a whole-because it requires computation of a wide
variety of problems. But it doesn't do word problems, and it won't get to
whether the child understands math concepts even though calculation is weak
(and that does happen).>>
Susan - what test does indicate knowledge of math concepts even though calculation is weak? (Calculation being, inability to remember X's table, not lining up problems accurately, etc?)
Also, when would the "cloze" method be preferable. My kids (both with language-based disabilities - one adhd) have always been given the Woodcock-Johnson (r) for the educational assessment and the WISC-III (r) for the IQ test. I've heard that the Stabford-Binet is not that useful for kids with language-based disabilities - what is your opinion?
SUBJECT: What Tests???? Date: 97-03-13 21:38:32 EDT
From: SJenk15951
What tests should be administered to a 12 year old monolingual. He may have a learning disablility. He speaks and reads Spanish. Dad has admitted he had trouble reading but went on to obtain a BS from Cal Berk.
I know the tests are only as good as the administrator and one should always
look at the raw data to determine the validity of the test. Any suggestions
would be appreciated especially if any one knows a learning disability
The special educators in our district are wondering about the reliability of using the WJR Cognitive Score in comparison the the achievement score for determination of a learning disability. Does anyone know of information about this? Thanks, Marie (you can e-mail me direct at ChilsonRMD).
SUBJECT: Re:What do these mean? Date: 97-03-14 01:45:38 EDT
From: SusanS29
Personally I much prefer the WISC if there's any chance of language involvement. It has to do with how the two tests are designed, and the impact one subtest has on the administration of the next one.
I prefer the KeyMath for math testing. It's one of the few tests that gives
true grade equivalents, which helps instructionally, and it covers a wide
range of math skills. Very often the student doesn't have to write to answer,
It's a group test, and the results are best ignored. If you really have a need to know your child's cognitive functioning have the school do an individual test.
I used to work for a test publishing company and refused to sell the group IQ
Why no mention of the WIAT? Is it reliable for testing written expression?
Why or why not? Has there been any discussion about this issue as far as
anyone knows in any reliable publication? Detail is okay, I do have some
background. Thanks. You can e-mail me if you prefer. Thanks.
SUBJECT: LD/ADD
testing Date: 97-03-14 21:19:56 EDT
From: GlynFP1
My third grade son is being evaluated for a possible LD in written expression. There may also be some ADD without hyperactivity involved. He is being tested through the school system. They will be giving him Woodcock Johnson and Stanford Binet, as well as some kind of evaluation specific to written expression (not TOWL). I guess I expected WISC III-R. I liked the idea of having separate scores for Verbal and Performance, plus having the subscores. Will the Stanford Binet test be able to give us as detailed information as the WISC-R III? Does it have separate scores for Verbal and Performance, too? I got the impression that the school system's tester uses STanford Binet more than WISC. Will we get accurate information from S-B?
Thank you for your response, Susan. I wonder why these tests are so widely used? I spent quite a bit of time worrying about my son's very low score in the nonverbal area, because I thought it might indicate a problem, only to have him score high in the same area 2 years later. I wish he had just never taken it, but that is what the school uses to help select for the G/T program.
SUBJECT: Re:What do these mean? Date: 97-03-15 08:55:16 EDT
From: Frenchey1
<WISC: verbal 120, performance 80, overall 93>
"Insist that they plan looking at the 120, not the 93 which is meaningless in this case."
I just received the results in the mail (the above was over the phone). It says verbal IQ 117 (one of the components read verbal comprehension 120), performance was 70 not 80. The summary and recommendations repeatedly mentions his "superior verbal talents". The overall 93 is not even mentioned other than the initial result.
My daughter has TBI. Our school tested her with the following . Please comment if these tests are for students who have TBI. and your thoughts of each test,sence i have read about one in the negitive. Differential Ability Scales - Wechsler Individual Achievement - Achenbach Teacher Report Form - Bender Visual-Motor Gestalt - Rey-Osterrieth Complex Figure - California Verble Learning (childern) - These are the tests given for her IEP. They also stated when asked by me they were not well informed about teaching a TBI student.
any help - thank
you.
SUBJECT: WISC III: V/P point spread Date: 97-03-15 17:23:47 EDT
From: GATORRW
What difference between WISC III Verbal and Performance scores would be considered significant? Ten, seventeen, twenty points? If the higher score is in the performance area, what might this mean?
Thanks for your response.
SUBJECT: Re: testing Date: 97-03-15 17:51:28 EDT
From: DBGRANT
Rey-Osterrieth Complex Figure Who had the source for this assessment. I am
trying to obtain the address or company thanks dbgrant
SUBJECT: Re: testing TBI
? Date: 97-03-16 01:50:52 EDT
From: SusanS29
They sound like good tests to me, and more complete than often done.
Teaching a student with the residual effects of TBI (Traumatic Brain Injury, right)? is unusual. It's not common in childhood, and there simply isn't much known about how to teach the students. In fact I took a class on pediatric psycho-neurology which talked in detail about how to test these children, but the instructor (who is a widely-known expert in her field) didn't know anything about how to apply the information in the classroom.
I had a student with TBI once, and what I did was what could be called "diagnostic teaching." In other words, I tried a wide variety of approaches to see what would work best. I never felt I was a successful as I would have liked, but the effects of TBI on learning can be a lot more profound than a typical learning disability.
The tests that you describe are interesting and in many cases quite probably useful in generating information about your daughter. However, one would hope that they (school assessment team members) could break down the measures by category (of function assessed) so that you know which tests are being used to measure which skills in terms of strengths and weaknesses. Otherwise, you are left with a collection of interesting tests, about which much could be said, without really answering your question.
The construction of a "basic" battery for a child with TBI (I hope you are referring to Traumatic Brain injury), should be constructed with several things in mind.
1. the age of the child and previous level of functioning.
2. the nature and extent of the injury and recovery.
3. the specific areas of current concern.
4. the resources and skills of the examiner and the availability of measures suited to the needs of the child.
Nevertheless, general categories to consider as important in a basic battery for this type of injury might typically include:
Intellectual functioning (including measures of verbal reasoning, vocabulary and nonverbal reasoning skill)
Academic achievement:
Attention deployment (usually via continuous performance measure or vigilance
task or other relevent measures
Memory skills
Motor coordination and construction skill
Executive and self-management skills
Language skills (if needed)
Emotional/ Social/ Behavioral adjustment
Areas most often ""missed" in children with mild TBI involve attention, memory and executive skills such as self-monitoring and self-management. In terms of school programming, common needs involve attention to child's level of energy across the day, as many become tired with prolonged mental exertion, attention problems that are subtle and impair learning and retention of information, needs for activities to be broken down into small bites and then over learned, and need for things to be done in a sequential fashion to avoid overloading a child.
"Otherwise, you are left with a collection of interesting tests, about which much could be said, without really answering your question. "
Peter, that is essentially how pediatric neuropsychology was tested in this course-fascinating data which provided anatomical information but no educational solutions.
When I asked about application I made the mistake of asking about connecting
this information to the field of "learning disabilities," which
neuro-psychologists sneer at because the terms (auditory perception, etc.)
are really meaningless at their level. I was really put down, and never spoke
up again. I hope it isn't reflective of the whole field. On the other hand
I hear from parents all the time who have neuropsychological results on their
child-very expensive and time- consuming-and no one at the school knows
what to do with the information educationally. I never found out either, and
I'm pretty good at devising educational strategies for a child's particular
SUBJECT: pre-school assessment Date: 97-03-12 16:50:54 EST
From: Elrox@aol.com
I'm looking for some (formal) pre-school assessment tools to use with language impaired population-any suggestions? Also, I'd like to do some independent study for professional development credit in the area of pre-school special ed.HELP!
"We have been asked by our 3 1/2 yo son's nursery school to have him tested for apd. After doing much research, we are still confused how an evaluator will determine whether he chooses not to follow instructions or can't follow instructions."
It's my understanding that this can't really be accurately diagnosed until age seven.
At this age they should deal with observed behaviors, as it's difficult to
get any kind of accurate diagnosis at the age of 3. IQ tests, for instance,
Has he had a eeg to test auditory nerves? My child did very early to help
understand the problem.
SUBJECT: Re: Test Reports & Reality Date: 97-03-22 02:26:45 EDT
From: PeterCB55
Dear Susan, regarding your comment,
" I hear from parents all the time who have neuropsychological results on their child-very expensive and time-consuming-and no one at the school knows what to do with the information educationally."
The same could probably be said for many psychological, psychoeducational, and "learning style" assessments. Having written and read many of these kinds of reports I couldn't help but agree with you, even though I believe that there are at least a few who do take the time to seriously consider the needs of parents and teachers who depend heavily upon such documents for clues and directions regarding a child's difficulties.
Without trying to rationalize the current state of report writing, I can only add my own sentiments. It doesn't help things much when parents have invested time, effort and hopes, in a lengthy assessment procedure only to get a jargon-filled, textbook length report that is long on description, and woefully short on explanation, integration, and direction. Regardless of the source of the report, parents should expect clinicians to write clearly and plainly. Good reports go beyond description of what was seen, found, and done. They convey a sense of the child as a learner who lives in a world that is to some extent unique from others. Effective reports also convey a sense of realistic limits with respect to the conclusions that are made. They must not hesitate to draw out and highlight important differences or to focus clearly on " key" factors that help or harm, without stretching the bounds of credibility. Good reports try to separate the causal from the correlated, and paint a picture of what is wrong, what is intact, what needs to be done (and why), and to suggest some sort of rationale for what things should come first, second, third and so on.
My personal favorites to gripe about are reports that 1) use the summary section to simply rehash what was already said in the body of the report without offering a "professional" opinion about what is wrong and why, and 2) reports that offer "shopping-lists" for recommendations (i.e., lengthy listings of overly detailed and usually poorly -suited recommendations borrowed from some professional workshop presenter's cookbook that the writer recently got ahold of).
Oh well,, IMHO writing is a craft that is not adequately rewarded or recognized for its importance until it comes to something that touches us personally.
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: Re: Test Reports & Reality Date: 97-03-22 09:15:22 EDT
From: Ratatat
< It doesn't help things much when parents have invested time, effort and
hopes, in a lengthy assessment procedure only to get a jargon-filled,
textbook length report that is long on description, and woefully short on
explanation, integration, and direction. >
Peter,
At a critical moment in my daughter's education when I most needed clear, pro-active recommendations, I received one of these reports! So frustrating. And the language was steeped in their jargon and sounded very pathologic.
Depressing. Black crepe hung everywhere.
I demanded that they re-write the report/recommendation section. It took three tries and six weeks before they produced a document that I felt comfortable sharing with the school, and that offered anything that could be applied to the educational setting of a regular classroom.
But, I got it. That was years ago. I don't know how I knew to put my fat little foot down and make those demands, but I am sure glad I did. Had I handed that first document to the school (a private, indedpendent day school) they would have simply announced that her needs were beyond what they could do, and she would have ended up in a self-contained special ed classroom.
Instead, today, she is in the top 1/4 of her grade academically and a proud,
confident young lady.
SUBJECT: Re: Test Reports & Reality Date: 97-03-22 14:12:21 EDT
From: SusanS29
"The same could probably be said for many psychological, psychoeducational, and "learning style" assessments."
That hasn't been my experience, but then I must admit that I had good training in both test interpretation and their use in devising interventions. Most public schools are required by law to work from the educational needs of the child, and where we are, all special ed psychological workups end with a list of accommodations likely to help. But it's possible that the special school district here (an umbrella district that serves the special ed needs of 23 independent districts) does an exceptional job.
So all I can say is from my own experience-working as a special educator and consults I've done-that there's a distinct difference in the ability of eduators to use the information. I'm sure it varies widely.
I think we're saying the same thing. The "jargon" (statistical test reports,
etc.) have to be there for the other professionals, but any testing that
doesn't result in a "road map" of possible interventions isn't well done. Why
should parents pay for incomprehensible results that don't help their child
in a concrete way?
SUBJECT: Re: Test Reports & Reality Date: 97-03-22 15:17:55 EDT
From: PeterCB55
Ratatat and Susan,
Your thoughts are really appreciated on this. I suspect that there are many people who have wondered for whom the examiner writes. Susan, I was heartened to hear that your school district has individuals with more common sense than some of the ones I have seen. Rarely, and I mean rarely, have I encountered individuals who knowingly overshoot their audience. Too often, a lack of time, a lack of resources, a lack of awareness and/or simply profressional inertia undergird such productions. Ratatat, your response was also a breath of fresh air.
As for the specific tendency of neuropsych reports to possess excess levels of jargon and a lack of real-world connection this is hard to guage, but I agree that the vulnerability is surely there. Often those of us who do this work, were trained in hospital settings, where there is a lack of connection with the community and schools in specific. Training in report writing is minimal, and as a post-doc student I can recall that you often didn't have time to address other than the most apparent aspects of a problem. On the other hand, since having moved into a community mental health setting, my experience has been that a sense of shared responsibility for a child is more keenly felt. Accordingly, emphasis has gradually shifted to include summary comments and recommendations that are hopefully more user friendly and "fit" to the needs of a child given the particulars of their teacher, school and parent relationships.
One of the most fitting suggestions I can recall being given, was to take the time to write about the child as a person, who lives a life and is an active learner in their world, rather than characterize them as the sum of scores and checklists.
I'm having a hard time getting an answer to a question that I've posted. I've gone through many of the postings and haven't found precisely what I am looking for. Can someone help?
My son is being evaluated for a possible learning disability in the area of written expression. Although the school system uses both the WISC-III R and Stanford Binet, the tester has chosen to use SB. It sounds like she uses this more than WISC. I was looking forward to WISC because of the subtest scores as well as separate scores for verbal and performance. I feel like I would be receiving more precise information about my son's strengths and weaknesses.
I don't know anything about Stanford-Binet. ARe the results broken down as precisely as they are in the WISC? Or is there just a total score? My nephew was tested with WISC and received scores of 139 verbal and 99 performance with a combined score of 122 (I think.) It seems to me that the 139 and the 99 are much more useful scores-clearly indicating his superior potential and his below average (for him) ability to "perform." I don't necessarily think my son will have such a wide range of scores, but that technique of scoring seems more "accurate." Any opinions? Answers? I'd appreciate it!!
Your question is well taken and worth asking again. The value of the WISC-III as compared to the Stanford Binet-4th (if that is the one being used) is not etched in stone. They offer IMHO, many comparable insights. As for similarities, both have measures that sample aspects of expressive vocabulary, understanding of practical and abstract concepts, visual organization and visual construction skills, mathematical reasoning skills, and working memory. However, there are important differences in the way specific skills are sampled and summary scores constructed. The Stanford Binet provides 4 summary scores and an overall Test composite. The WISC-III has two large summary scores and a composite score. The summary scores from the SB-4 cover Verbal Reasoning and Abstract/Visual Reasoning which share much in common with the Verbal and Performance summary scores from the WISC-III. The two remaining summary scores are unique and the WISC-III does not produce comparable scores. These include a "Short-Term" memory score, and a "Quantitative Reasoning" score (that looks at reasoning with numbers). The WISC-III includes 4 "factor scores" that can provide helpful information (i.e., verbal comprehension, Perceptual Organization, Freedom from Distractibility, and Perceptual Speed), but these usually require some interpretative care because their value depends on a number of factors.
As for their value as measures of cognitive abilities, the SB-4 and the WISC-III are both likely to offer useful information. However, I encourage you to ask the examiner to tell you "in concrete terms" what the expected value of each measure in the battery is.
Also, the WISC-III "Performance" summary score is a "label" that provides a name for the statistical average of 5 subtests. These measures purport to assess visual-reasoning skills, although in many cases verbal abilities make an important contribution to a child's scores on these subtests, as does experience (e.g., with puzzles and Mazes) . These subtests also ask the child to perform under timed conditions, which can reflect the impact of "speed of processing" or fine-motor coordination. They are not by any means "pure" measures of visual-reasoning skill, so be carefull about the assumptions you make. Performance to you may not be what the test maker intended. Moreover, index scores are "averaged" scores. As such, they can obscure important differences in ability reflected in individual subtests. They can be helpful to be sure, but you might want to seek out additional information on the how and why of the proposed assessment battery before testing is started from the examiner.
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: Re: Test Reports & Reality Date: 97-03-23 11:43:27 EDT
From: SusanS29
"As for the specific tendency of neuropsych reports to possess excess levels
of jargon and a lack of real-world connection this is hard to guage, but I
agree that the vulnerability is surely there"
Let me tell you what strongly influences that perspective of mine.
I took a class in pediatric neuropsychology. When we were in the next-to-last session and no practical applications had been mentioned except helping a surgeon decide where a brain lesion was most likely located, I asked about any educational implications of the test results.
The woman looked at me as if I were from Mars. She was appalled at any mention of the word "learning disabilities," saying the jargon used for LD was ludicrous and imprecise.
From the neuro-psychologist's point of view it may well be imprecise, but it attempts to bridge the gap from the physical brain to the realities of the classroom. What she said was that the field of neuro-psychology wanted nothing whatsoever to do with "learning disabilities." It was perturbing, to say the least, to have all this information and no road map...
SUBJECT:
Re: testing (again) Date: 97-03-23 11:49:49 EDT
From: SusanS29
"These subtests also ask the child to perform under timed conditions, which can reflect the impact of "speed of processing" or fine-motor coordination. They are not by any means "pure" measures of visual-reasoning skill, so be carefull about the assumptions you make. Performance to you may not be what the test maker intended. "
Yes, indeed.
What good testers do after they have either the WISC or the S-B is look for further areas to explore.
For instance, a student with low coding score might then be given either a Bender or Beery. In some cases I prefer seeing both. The Bender requires the student to remember and draw complex designs he or she has never seen before. They have to organize their work on a sheet of paper with no guidance whatsoever.
The Beery uses forms more familiar to most children-straight lines and circles instead of rows of "bubbles and abstract curves-and provides a defined area-a box-in which to put the design.
So even though these two tests seem, on the surface, to test similar skills, they do it in widely different ways. Each test will give information about the same general area of functioning that the other cannot.
Thanks so much for you information! I'm sure I'll be posting again for more clarification.
I do have another issue to ask about. My son's teacher mentioned the possibility of ADD without hyperactivity. This came up AFTER the Child Study Committee had met and determined that my son qualified for the LD evaluation, so the person doing the testing for the school system is not aware of this possibility. I asked the school counselor about this and she suggested that I mention this issue to the in-school Child Study Committee coordinator, IN WRITING. From what I have read, the determination of a LD in written expression and/or ADD without hyperactivity can be a tricky diagnosis. I'm afraid that if I mention ADD to the Committee then THAT is what they will then focus on, instead of the possibility of a LD. Is this a real concern? The counselor told me that in actuality the Child Study Comm. is more apt to diagnose a LD than ADD.
We have considered getting outside testing. However, for us (and for many other families, I'm sure), being able to afford this is questionable. We were so relieved that my son qualified for the county school-funded testing, but now we wonder if that testing will be precise enough and "delicate" enough to make the LD and/or ADD determination?
I had planned for this to be a short-but-sweet posting, but I often get carried away! I'd appreciate a response or opinion on these issues. These MB's have been the source of so much helpful information for me and they have often given me the confidence to step forward and be an advocate for my son. Thanks again.
Glyn
SUBJECT: Re: Test Reports & Reality Date: 97-03-24 02:49:35 EDT
From: Mars000210
Susan, I work in the medical field and from what I have read a doctor of
neuropsychology is the person recommended to find certain subtle learning
disabilities. Just as in many fields there are subspecialties there are also
in neuropsychology. Some specialize in using the testing information to
assist other medical doctors, while other's actually specialize in testing
and finding learning disabilities that are not always apparent and
transposing that information into the proper language (jargon) for use in a
school setting. So a parent if using a Doctor of neuropsychology should find
one that specializes in writing reports that are in complience with the
school districts dinfinition of a learning disability. Just a note I also had
my youngest child tested by a neurologist whose whole report was medical
termonlogy and when I explained that the information was going to be used in
the school setting she rewrote the report to relate her findings to how they
would apply to the school setting. She also recommende further testing with a
doctor that has a neuropsychology background, which we did.
SUBJECT: evaluator
titles Date: 97-04-01 11:33:29 EDT
From: CurlyCarol
As a special education/reading teacher, who performs many informal and formal evaluations at the elementary level, I am perplexed by the different titles evaluators give themselves...such as "learning disabilities specialist", "reading specialist", "educational diagnostician", etc. Are these arbitrary titles that professionals give themselves or are they dependent on training, job responsibilities, experience? I have always just signed my evaluations, "Special Education Teacher" or "Reading Teacher" but might be interested in "adopting" one of these titles for myself! Can anyone clarify for me?
Thanks!
SUBJECT: Re: Test Reports & Reality Date: 97-04-11 17:57:10 EDT
From: TLVAIL
Very well said Peter!! I'm going to put a copy in our school psycs. box-Her
descriptions include such words as "plegmatic", "vasillating". and many
others which I won't even attempt to spell- It took me an hour with
dictionary to try to figure out what she was talking about and I have
Masters! I've really tried to cut the jargon out of my reports and IEP's but
it's admittedly difficult. Sometimes it takes 2 sentences to explain what I
could write in one word-
SUBJECT: out of print tests Date: 97-04-15 20:13:52 EDT
From: Sprkplg31
I am looking for copies of some tests for a fellow teacher. She was told about these while taking a graduate course in Special Education.
Unfortunately, these tests are out of print. If anyone has a copy of these,
she would be happy to pay for the tests..shipping and handling also. Please
E-mail me at sprkplg31@aol.com if you can help us out. One of the tests is
titled, "ITA Initial Teaching Alphabet", the other one is," Reading Miscue
Inventory". She is also looking for a book titled, " Mainstreaming" by Judy
Woods. This book is also out of print. If you know where I can get a copy of
any of these, please e-mail me. Thanks for your help!
SUBJECT: Re:out of print
tests Date: 97-04-15 23:56:22 EDT
From: SusanS29
Judy Woods is here on-line. I'm not sure what her screen name is but a search
might find her.
SUBJECT: Re:out of print tests Date: 97-04-16 18:07:02 EDT
From: Sprkplg31
Thanks, SusanS29! I will look for her.
SUBJECT: test scores? Date: 97-04-18 13:00:26 EDT
From: DeJaM41
Would there be any significance in a performance score dropping 12 pts. in 8 months? Wisc-III I.Q. test was test given on both occasions.
Thanks -Deb
SUBJECT: Testing and diplomas Date: 97-04-18 13:58:46 EDT
From: KErnhart
My state has just included in the requirment to recieving a diploma, the passing of a preformance test at a 9th grade ability test to be taken 4or 5 times from grade 9-12. If students cannot pass test, diplomas will not be issued. Special edication students are not excempt.
In my district, retesting with the same form of a test instrument within 1 year positively invali Dates the second test. Was the same form given? You could question the testing procedures: 1 test session vs. 2 test sessions, time of day given the test. If your child is very young, test scores may fluctuate based on these differences.
Yes - the same tests were given but the school system said first testing was invalid because not done correctly. I have results of both tests and there are many discrepecies between the two. I was also told psychologist giving tests last yr was going through many personal problems. We are having independent evaluation done. Hope to get answers then- the waiting is just hell. It seems like we been going through this mess for so long!
SUBJECT:
Re: test scores? Date: 97-04-18 22:21:54 EDT
From: DeJaM41
My son is 11 yrs. forgot to put that in last post.- Thanks
" Would there be any significance in a performance score dropping 12 pts.
in 8 months? Wisc-III I.Q. test was test given on both occasions."
Not really. According to the statistics, that isn't a "significant difference." Are you aware of any differences? For instance if the child has ADD, was he or she on medication for one testing but not the other?
SUBJECT:
Re: test scores? Date: 97-04-19 09:38:11 EDT
From: SusanS29
"In my district, retesting with the same form of a test instrument within 1 year positively invali Dates the second test."
THANK YOU... that dawned on me after I posted.
To be valid, you must wait a year to give the WISC again.
There are a number of factors that can account for such changes, which might be worth considering before moving ahead and considering the change as "meaningful" either in a positive or negative sense. For example, the subtests that make up the performance section of the WISC-III are usually performed under timed conditions, hence individual variations in the speed of performance can influence scores. Also aging can move a child from one set of scoring criteria to another one that is higher resulting in some instances in a slight decrease in scores. If the child has attention difficulties it is also possible that the novelty of the test on the first adminstration really "glued" them into the activities, while on the second pass, familiarity with items may have lead to a decrease in their attention to the details of the tasks. While these are speculations, the point is that the performance subtest scores are not the most "stable" and may vary due to the influence of many factors. You might wish to talk with the test administrator first and get their thoughts on this before looking for real-world correlates of their performance on this measure.
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: Re:Testing and diplomas Date: 97-04-20 12:31:58 EDT
From: RRTeach
You don't say what state. If you are speaking of New York State, yes, you are correct. Special Education students will be expected to meet the same regents test requirements as all students. More information concerning this is available from the state ed dept web site at:
www.nysed.gov
Testing modifications can be applied to regents exams.
NYS districts and special education teachers are struggling with ways to implement the new regulations. Currently only about 50% of students (all students) statewide are meeting these requirements.
Linda
rrteach@aol.com
The right to be heard does not include the right to be taken seriously.
SUBJECT: Re:Testing and diplomas Date: 97-04-21 06:03:29 EDT
From: KErnhart
I understand the reason why the states are expecting them to pass test but I
also wonder how many students will soon be dropping out. My daughter is one
who says "Why go to school when I know I may never be able to pass that test"
Of course we would never allow her to quitw, but we are looking for
alternitive educational options. Vocational school, work study, supportive
employment. She needs to begin to devolpe the tools she needs for transition
even earloer now then before. The Sate is also sending to the senate a bill
wich will raise standards even higher. Core 40 (college prep) will be the
dipoma criteria for graduates. God bless the welfare system when our youth
start knoking on their doors.
SUBJECT: Re:Testing and diplomas Date: 97-04-21 07:28:22 EDT
From: Ratatat
Personally, I find all this mandatory, standardized testing frustrating. Accommodations on test format and time limitations are given by The College Board for the tests they administer, and also for other standardized entrance exams. Now, we have "exit" exams that seem to think that accommodations are not necessary in some states?
Because testing has become such an essential part of education, the states who are making standardized "exit" exams mandatory are really going to need to re-think how they administer and design them. Otherwise, I can just see class-action suits on this issue.
And, this doesn't even touch on the issues of whether kids have received appropriate accommodations so that they've learned what they are capable of, and can pass the exams, even with testing modifications.
Seems like they've put a cart or two before the horse. It seems that the tests are becoming diagnostic tools to assess many things, including the curriculum and level of instruction, rather than whether our kids have developed mastery in certain areas.
Here in Michgan the standardized tests are given over a period of days and take a total of ELEVEN hours of class time to administer! Unreal. Excessive.
Whole district's-full of parents are protesting for the wasted classroom time
and are exempting their children from these tests.
SUBJECT: Re:Testing and
diplomas Date: 97-04-21 10:07:39 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I understand the reason why the states are expecting them to pass test but I also wonder how many students will soon be dropping out. "
This state law violates federal law (which supercedes, since it's based on the Constitution) unless the state includes an a pro-active plan for alteratives in both teaching approaches and testing approaches.
Otherwise this law will only be in place until some parent gets fed up and challenges it.
SUBJECT: Re:dyspraxia and I.Q. Date: 97-04-21 22:13:49 EDT
From: U9797
please please please explain apraxia to me. my 8 yr.old has mild apraxia,
ineed help now. thanks
SUBJECT: Re:Testing and diplomas Date: 97-04-22 14:37:45 EDT
From: KErnhart
The way I am feeling about this test, Imay be the one parent who does.
However a group called covoh has made some political moves to suggest this
I am a diagnostician in Texas and am interested in knowing diagnostician's duties in other Texas districts. Specifically, must diagnosticians in your district attend/conduct all ARD meetings that take place? If not who does?
Where I am, the educational psychologist runs all the diagnostic meetings:
the pre-eval meeting where the parents sign permission to test, and the post-evaluation meeting where the results are explained and a diagnosis determined. They run all three-year re-evaluation meetings.
The special education teachers run all IEPs,and the educational psychologists
write a list of suggestions but don't attend.
SUBJECT: Re:Diagnosticians
caseload Date: 97-04-26 18:25:52 EDT
From: Mithue
In my district in Maryland, the ARD chairman is the school Principal or VP. The educational diagnostic teacher and school psychologist attend all ARDs involving test permission and review of test results. THey are not required to attend IEP meetings unless there are special circumstances. The special education teacher sends the forms out to the parents and the speech therapist schedules the time in the ARD book. The guidance counselor rarely shows up any more; they used to run the show until they collectively complained.
In Hartford the Planning and Placement Team meetings consist of the Sp. Ed. teacher (in all but "Speech and Language Only" PPTs), the parent(s), the school psychologist for all new referrals and triennials, the principal, the social worker, and most important, the classroom teacher. For Grades 6-8 I routinely invite the guidance counselor, since she will be/ is involved with all the students. For students who are being considered for a full-time Sp. Ed. classroom or a special program, the Sp. Ed. coordinator is invited. Our principal chairs the meeting. We do not have an educational diagnostician. The Special Ed. Resource teacher does all the achievement tests, and shares the duties with the school psychologist in testing for deficits in auditory and visual processing skills.
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:Testing Date: 97-04-27 19:35:49 EDT
From: ShelleyHL
Here in Connecticut we have mastery tests at 4, 6, 8, and a comprehensive
test in grade 10. For special education students we are permitted to make
certain modifications (small group, untimed, someone else bubbles, omit
parts, etc.) based on the child's special education needs. What perplexes me
is that only special education students can have these modifications. Our
director has told us that children with a 504 accommodation plan cannot have
modifications because they are not special ed. It seems to me that these
kiddos are not being given equal access to the testing if they cannot have
some modifications, especially since they are being done in school (e.g
untimed). Are we being misled or is this really the way? What's it like in
other states? ShelleyHL
SUBJECT: Re:Testing Date: 97-04-27 20:07:03 EDT
From: MarRigby
Shelley:
I am in CT also, and what you have been told is WRONG, WRONG, WRONG!!!!! I have two 504 students in my school, and one of them is supposed to take them untimed. Also, any other modifications can be discussed and put into effect by the team. Where in Connecticut are you. You can E-Mail with that answer.
Marilyn
SUBJECT: Re:Testing Date: 97-04-27 22:38:41 EDT
From: RNerenbaum
Shelly, My son took state test for the first time this year and did extremely well. I am a firm believer if they gave the test to all kids the way they give it to special ed students we could more than likely improve our scores. Alot of people can read something and not comprehend it but if some one else read it to them and they were untimed to an extent they would do better.
SUBJECT:
Re: Testing Date: 97-04-28 11:51:22 EDT
From: SusanS29
"What perplexes me is that only special education students can have these modifications. Our director has told us that children with a 504 accommodation plan cannot have modifications because they are not special ed."
Your director is mistaken. Pray he or she figures this out before some parent
arranges for the director to explain this attitude to the Office of Civil
Rights, who will be amazed...
SUBJECT: "APRAXIA Date: 97-04-28 19:34:39 EDT
From: U9797
help! maybe you can tell me what APRAXIA IS? NO ONE HAS ANSWERED MY MANY MANY REQUESTS FOR INFO. I 'LL GIVE YOU MORE INFO ON THE CHILD IF YOU REPLY. THANKS IN ADVANCE/
SUBJECT: Re:Dyspraxia and I.Q. Date: 97-04-28 19:37:14 EDT
From: U9797
ARE DYSPRAXIA AND APRAXIA THE SAME? WHAT ARE THEY/ ANY INFO YOU CAN GIVE ME
Could I have some suggestions as to what kind of formal assessment I can do in the classroom that is not time consuming but offers some valid information? I am a Self Contained (cross cat) grades 3-6 teacher that feels ignored at MDC's and annual reviews. It is tough, I know I don't know everything, but I feel as though teacher's input is crucial as we are with the students daily, but our "team" just is not interested in the teacher's feedback because it isn't standardized. Any help would be appreciated. By the way, I am not the only special ed teacher in our school that feels this way, I think the "team" may be just a bit to interested in raw test scores.
Thanks, I'm getting tired of being ignored and would like to find a way not
to be
SUBJECT: Re:"APRAXIA Date: 97-04-28 22:52:27 EDT
From: SusanS29
U9 I think someone did post it. I guess you didn't see it.
Apraxia is diminished control over muscles. Sometimes it involves gross motor skills, such as walking. Sometimes gross motor coordination is fine and it affects speech.
So just the word "apraxia" doesn't tell people enough about your child to offer much help.
I was wondering if anyone could give me an idea what the ranges are for I.Q. scores? example:( MIMH) what would the score (range) have to be for a child to be diagnosed MIMH.
And so on LD, MOMH.
Reason I ask is I have a 12 year and when given the WISC-III TEST I'm told she falls in the mild to moderate range, what are the ranges? Please help.
The Kaufman Achievement Tests has a brief form that doesn't take to long to give-and it will give you Standard Scores and Percentiles as well as grade Equivalents and Age Equivalents.
I still like the PIAT-R. The Test of Written Language Spontaneous Writing subtest only takes fifteen minutes to administer and gives a wealth of information that include standardized test scores.
I like to give the KTEA-Brief (the first test above) Spelling subtest and the PIAT-R Spelling subtest to be able to compare revisualization Spelling skills with recognition Spelling skills.
I agree with you-you see the kid and work with the kid, and probably know the kid better than the team. Don't let them bully you-speak up at those meeting!! :)
"I was wondering if anyone could give me an idea what the ranges are for I.Q. scores? example:( MIMH) what would the score (range) have to be for a child to be diagnosed MIMH.
And so on LD, MOMH."
Each state uses its own acronyms. We don't use MIMH and MOMH in Missouri.
In Missouri, as long as the student is not retarded, IQ has absolutely nothing to do with whether the student is found to be LD or not. I've had LD students who had IQ's of 75 and LD students who had IQ's of over 135.
SUBJECT:
State Testing Date: 97-04-30 16:41:15 EDT
From: ShelleyHL
I stand corrected. In Connecticut we can provide for modifications for
kiddos with 504 plans but we cannot exempt them from the state mastery
testing unless they are special education students where this justification
can be made. Thanks for all of your replies. I'm glad I got this cleared up
in my head...ShelleyHL
SUBJECT: Re:"APRAXIA Date: 97-04-30 23:11:46 EDT
From: Bre5
I copied this from an e-mail message on the apraxia discussion list (see end of this message).
Varying ways of defining apraxia exist. Jon Eisenson (1972) provides the following definition: "Oral apraxia may be defined as an inability or a severe impairment in the individual's ability to perform voluntary movements involving the muscles of the larynx, pharynx, tongue, lips, palate and cheeks, although automatic movements of the same musculature appear to be unimpaired." The apraxic child may show no difficulty with chewing, swallowing, or crying aloud, but voluntary movements of the oral structures are difficult and imprecise.
Doris J. Johnson and Helmer R. Myklebust (1967) offer a different definition:
"...the apraxic cannot transduce the heard (auditory) symbols into their motor-kinesthetic equivalents." Apraxic children are not able to associate words with the required motor patterns of speech. "Children with apraxia...cannot talk until they learn to coordinate a sequence of sounds with a sequence of movements."
Frances Elizabeth Lohr (1978) defines apraxia within the context of a motor speech disorder caused by a dysfunction of the central nervous system which results in a disability in motor programming. She also believes the disorder affects voluntary movement and does not impair involuntary movement.
Nancy Kaufman (1984) says that developmental verbal apraxia is the "impairment in the ability to execute the oral movements necessary to produce isolated phonemes or to combine oral movements at a basic level." Such definitions are a theory which answer the question of "why" the faulty speech patterns occur. "Having ruled out hearing impairment, sensory-motor pathology, oral-structural deviations, severe cognitive deficits, emotional or environmental factors, we conclude that faulty motor-seech program exists, a neurologically-based speech disorder."
Here are a couple of internet addresses for definitions of apraxia:
"...but we cannot exempt them from the state mastery testing unless they are special education students where this justification can be made."
That makes sense, too, when you think about it, because any student whose
learning problems were that severe really should be on an IEP, not just a
504.
SUBJECT: Re:"APRAXIA Date: 97-04-30 23:14:56 EDT
From: SusanS29
"The apraxic child may show no difficulty with chewing, swallowing, or crying aloud, but voluntary movements of the oral structures are difficult and imprecise."
"May" is an important word there. My husband's cousin has severe oral dyspraxia. It affects her eating as well as her speech. As a result she rarely eats in public. If invited to a family dinner, she eats in private before she comes, and sips something to drink during dinner.
I was wondering if you could elaborate on this. You see, I was dealing with the question of "apraxia" as it applied to non-oral issues for one of my children. (You may remember referring me to PattiHam regarding my questions). But since you posted this message, I'm beginning to wonder if my other daughter may have oral apraxia. I am constantly asking her to close her mouth when she chews (she's 15) and to try to eat without making noise. She also has great difficulty with saying individual sounds within a word, she says that she knows how to say it, but just can't get it to come out right. Any thoughts?
"Apraxia is generally used to describe oral related problems speech / swollowing/chewing issues."
Not really. It was first used as a medical term to describe a specific form of cerebral palsy. Generally it now means oral apraxia, but most neurologists wouldn't agree with it. They would read "apraxia" and then ask which muscle systems were affected. I have apraxic cerebral palsy which affects my right leg moderately and my left leg very moderately.
Medically, "a" as the prefix indicates a higher level of problem than the prefix "dys," so medically, "apraxia" is a more severe form of "dyspraxia."
It reminds me of how people use two sets of parallel terms in learning disabilities. Educators never use the word "dyslexia," but outside the educational community we see it all the time (very rarely alexia, which would be the near total inability to even learn letter recognition in a person of normal or near normal intelligence). Rare, but it happens, usually from head trauma.
Meanwhile, I just saw a book in the bookstore on how "dyslexia" affects math. Some people have chosen to broaden the term "dyslexia" to mean "any problem learning for any reason."
Usually when parents say apraxia, but I just had a conversation with a parent in e-mail whose child's diagnosis was "apraxia." I assumed oral, but it turned out that it was cerebral palsy, and extremities were involved.
Susan-could the book in the store that referred to dyslexia and math actually be referring to the difficulties students with reading disabilities have in solving word problems-they can't read the problems, therefore they can't solve them?
Parents of one of my students (a lovely child who has difficulties in math
that were identified and for which she is still receiving SpEd services)
spent megabucks having an outside evaluation done. They came to me all
smiles-"We finally have some answers!! We know what's wrong!! She has
dyscalculia!" I smiled and said, "Ah yes, that means she has difficulties in
the area of mathematics." I didn't have the heart to tell them that their
news wasn't news at all-that we had just avoided using words like
dyscalculia, dyslexia, dysgraphia because we are trained to speak in terms
When you said that you smiled because you didn't have the heart to tell them that you avoided using the broader terms because you where trained to speak in terms that are easily understood and less forbidding to the parents. The parents reminded me of my patients and the doctors and nurses who don't use the correct terms and only terms that that were simple and less forbidding to describe a disease process that may in fact change their whole life. Well after 15 years I haven't found a patient yet who didn't benefit from using both terms, the broader to specific being the best for the patient. This from my point of view shoud be done in special education as well. Parents want to understand the whole picture not just the piece you think they can understand or need to know.
I just wanted to add this point of view as I found it very frustrating when I needed to understand the whole picture and the school only used simple terms. The more I knew the better I coped and my children coped. Barb
SUBJECT:
Re: Terms Date: 97-05-03 10:07:21 EDT
From: ShelleyHL
I report testing information regularly to parents, teachers and other professionals. It is my opinion that the information presented needs to be understood by all or they will simply not be able to be a contributing member of our team. I have found that excessive jargon is confusing to many parents, but not all parents. I try to strike a balance between using "professional terms" and lay language that can be understood by all. As I posted earlier, it is our teams policy to conference with a parent before the meeting to present the information. This gives the family an opportunity to ask questions and think about the sometimes large volume of information presented to them BEFORE they are asked to make a decision regarding their child in a meeting. During our conference we bring examples of the types of tasks the child was asked to do and show examples of how the child did well and where mistakes were made. These samples help clarify the test results and any jargon we may use. We encourage the parents to write down questions and call or bring them to the PPT meeting. Does any one else do this? It is time consuming but really helps us all work as a team. ShelleyHL
SUBJECT:
Re: Testing Date: 97-05-03 10:59:38 EDT
From: Ratatat
<What perplexes me is that only special education students can have these modifications. Our director has told us that children with a 504 accommodation plan cannot have modifications because they are not special ed.
It seems to me that these kiddos are not being given equal access to the
testing if they cannot have some modifications, especially since they are
being done in school (e.g untimed). Are we being misled or is this really
the way? >
You are being mislead. That is complete hogwash. Kids with a 504 plan
absolutely can have the modifications they NEED in order for barriers to be
Mars, I understand what you are saying about getting the whole picture. I agree with you. However, sometimes there are terms used by professionals that are either misleading or do not give information because they are mired in "professional language." I do not mean to insult anybody's intelligence, as I'm sure you know, but I don't see any reason to speak "Latin" unless everyone at the table can speak "Latin". That's why I try to give the entire picture using terms we all understand. I'm not hiding information if I say:
"Your daughter experiences difficulties remembering mathematical concepts. Sometimes her weakness in short term memory makes it hard for her to remember all the steps involved in three-digit multiplication. For example..." I think explaining the disabilities this way communicates better than : "Your daughter has dyscalculia."
I think ShelleyL's practice of meeting with parents before the actual team
meeting is a wonderful one. Unfortunately our counselor balks at such
suggestions. I usually offer to explain things again any time the parents
would like to meet-but of couse, this is not as effective as having the
shared information before the conference itself. I've been pushing hard for
other improvements at our school for the past couple of years...maybe this
I viewthe Multidisciplinary Team meeting as the time to communicate to the parent information that the team as gathered about their child and to explain why or why not the child is determined to have an exceptional education need. The "professionals" at the meeting are discussing the child of those parents, and I feel that ethically we are responsible to communicate to them, not "around" them. As case manager and school psychologist dealing mainly with early childhood and elementary age students, I feel that it is critical to demystify the process of determining exceptional education need, especially for the first go-round. It really isn't so hard! I explain what an M-Team (Wisconsin's IDEA process) is for (stressing that for the purpose of determining whether a disability exists or not, we will primarily be discussing the difficulties that their child may have, but that we all know that is only part of the picture of their child); I explain the criteria for the disability we suspect, how we will determine whether the criteria are met, what the exclusionary factors are, etc. Interesting enough, I have some teachers, especially regular education teachers, tell me that they never really understood the whole process themselves and never really understood how a Learning Disability was determined. I always check with the parents and ask if the information shared seems to fit with their impressions of the child they know and love! The parents also get copies of all reports before the IEP meeting and after, get a copy of the IEP. For an initial M-Team, only then do they receive the Notice of Placement/Consent for Placement which they are asked to sign. Jargon, standard deviations and such are written in the reports that are sent to families and filed away in the Confidential files. We can't forget we are talking about a child not a disability.
"We can't forget, we are talking about a child not a disability."
I might add, that we are also talking about a larger effort to develop a "partnership" with children and their families (although I know for many readers this simply isn't the experience that has been had). Whether or not there is agreement regarding the clarity or accuracy of the picture (i.e., the child's diagnosis, needs and preferred interventions), we are linked together as team of responsible adults who must help each other to grow not just in terms of our clinical understanding of a given child, but in terms of how we can facilitate the maintenance of an effective professional team. My experience has been that "effective" special education teams manifest certain traits that set them apart and mark them as positive resources for parents, teachers, and other professionals. For example, beyond the fact that "technical" language is often necessary to qualify children for special education services, effective teams usually have at least one member who is "available" to translate report data for parents and remain supportive of their efforts to obtain additional information suited to their understanding of their child at various stages in the whole process. IMHO, effective teams also have ways to support and coach parents in their child-advocacy efforts as well as ways of modelling conflict resolution when disagreements emerge among staff members. Rather than have a professional meltdown, I have been impressed how some teams invest in efforts to resolve disagreements so members are not isolated or belittled. It isn't just the jargon, it's also the journey that can make the difference.
Ahh if only you and the wonderfull souls who post here could have been at the teams I attended. My journey would have been more enjoyable.
As you stated about the math disabilty the explaination was wonderfull and yes just saying the child has dyscalcula would not have been enough. Yet it could have been the first thing said and then this what dysclacula means to your child, thus the parent has the technical main catagory their child falls under, the catagory terms the school usues and the pieces that make math difficult for this child.
It also gives the parents a lot of terminology to start their own search
on how to help thier child. Maybe teams should have a how to guide book
called : Making teams more effective, communication techniques that promote
<<As a psychologist once told me... if you don't give them the info before
hand, they may not be ABLE to make an informed decision. >>
This has been my biggest gripe with the school system. My earlier TEAM meetings always left me with the feeling that they EXPECTED all parents to just sign the IEP's without questioning or understanding them.
As a matter of fact, on one IEP for my daughter, all of the goals and objectives stated 4th grade curriculum, yet she was in 5th grade. I wouldn't sign the IEP until they changed the curriculum level (it was supposed to say 5th grade). The special ed teacher told me that she didn't think parents even read the whole IEP! I was astonished.
<< "Parents Don't Have Titles, and Teachers Don't Have Feelings" which
addressed the issues of the importance of parents and teachers understanding
the information and understanding each other.>>
Again, this is exactly how the powers that be make everyone feel, IMHO.
SUBJECT:
RE: apraxia Date: 97-05-04 22:46:08 EDT
From: Frenchey1
My son is diagnosed with extended apraxic syndrome by his neurologist. Oral,
gross, fine, and visual motor being affected. I noticed his doc always
referring to it as apraxia but have noticed over the years the terms apraxia
That's the draw back in medical terminology/ you can mix and match the prefixes and sufixes and still be talking about the same problem or two different symtoms in the same family of the disorder. That's why doctors describe everything in their accessment along with the medical diagnosis. A in the strictist since means without, such and aphasic patient would be without speech, but it has two subcatagories expressive and receptive aphasia, and usally neither catagory is fully totaly without speech but have a severe problem instead. Dys means difficulty, it is a lesser degree or severity. dysgraphia/ difficulty with writting, but doesn't explain where the difficulty exists or how severe,andI have never heard of agraphia vs dysgraphia.
So again the parents have to sort through the catagories and relate each diagnosis to how it affects their child. IDEA catagories can be just as confusing trouble with written expression is only the main catagory doesn't give supporting details does it, always need the details to complete the picture.
" That's what I meant. Parnets/ teachers and are given terminology that is correct , but means different things depending on who's talking."
Yes I know... :/ I see the same thing with the term "dyslexia" also. There are those who claim that only 3 in 1,000 students are dyslexic. Others claim that one in five are. Both views cannot possibly be correct.
"Susan-could the book in the store that referred to dyslexia and math actually be referring to the difficulties students with reading disabilities have in solving word problems--..."
No... they re-defined dyslexia as "math problems."
SUBJECT: Re:SusanS29 -
"APRAXIA Date: 97-05-05 21:02:53 EDT
From: SusanS29
" When you said that you smiled because you didn't have the heart to tell them that you avoided using the broader terms because you where trained to speak in terms that are easily understood and less forbidding to the parents. "
When did I say that???
I said that special education law uses the terms "Learning disabled in the area of (reading, math or written expression)."
I think you're thinking of someone else. I was always extremely pro-active with the parents of my students. I explained to them what the test results meant; what the terms meant; how their child learned best and what he or she had the most difficulty with. I showed them the materials I used and why I used them.
I am adamently opposed to talking down to parents (or children-starting in third grade, usually, I did the same things with my students so they could advocate for themselves intelligently when they were older.)
Really-Either you're thinking of someone else, or you misunderstood me.
Susan the poster was referring to me. I wasn't talking down to the parents-I consider myself very pro-active as well. In fact, I have developed quite a reputation for fighting for my students.
The smile was my way of maintaining my cool when a particular set of parents acted as if they had never received the correct diagnosis of their daughter's learning disability before. They had. Very clearly. By several extrememly competent professionals. In many different terms. They simply chose to be grateful to the expensive outside report-which told them exactly what we had. I think I deserve many smiles for my patience and support of those parents that evening. I actually felt a bit deflated inside.
The past two years have been an almost daily battle. I've never seen an advocate in our building. We special ed teachers usually play that role for our students in my school. I guess when I feel a job has been done well it's hard to realize that there are parents who don't understand what has been done. I'm not knocking parents!!! I realize that their job is a tough one. Just let me "smile" when I need to . It's easier on me than kicking furniture.
By the way-no posts saying I didn't explain the diagnosis well enough in the
first place. I did. The Psychologist did. The teacher that had the student
<As a psychologist once told me... if you don't give them the info before
hand, they may not be ABLE to make an informed decision. >
At the "feedback" session after my daughter had been evaluated and diagnosed with ADD in 5th grade, the psychologist told me that she encouraged all parents to become experts in the child's area of disability. She said that she believed that parents should have the goal of reading the same materials read by the professionals. She gave me a duotang folder full of important articles and lists of resources and organizations. She also informed me that my child had certain guaranteed civil rights to be educated appropriately. In addtion, she recommended several professional-level texts.
I took what she said to heart. It took a while for it all to make sense to me and to close the gaps in my understanding. Frankly, I found the whole area to be so fascinating, and the plans and supports we developed for my daughter to provide so much benefit, that it became a personal passion to learn about ADD, comprehensively. Little did she know it, but that psychologist, in giving me "permission" to pursue complicated studies, etc. created a fierce and knowledgable advocate for my own daughter, and all children with ADD and other learning difficulties.
I'm so sorry for the confusion of my post.I know Susan did not smile at the parents with a knowing smile and I know exactly what the smile meant by the other poster. Rmember I am a nurse and smile inwardly to myself at times,but realize as you do that the explainaitons were not understood by the receipient and more clarrification was needed. I know all the professionals who post here really care about the students and the parents. I would never think anyone who posts here were talking down or looking down at the parents.
As you can see my LD's get in my way here too. Thank goodness my job
usually relies on the spoken word for 60 % of my job. Heaven's knows how long
I'd last if I had to relate what I mean on paper or typing. Again sorry for
the misunderstanding. I have learned so much through the posts here. Barb
Hey Mars-I wouldn't put you or anyone else into "hot water." I loved what Ratatat wrote about parents becoming knowledgeable about the disability area of their child. What a fabulous psychologist!! I've met many people in my Graduate courses who became Learing Disability Specialists because they wanted to learn how to help their own children. My own eldest son, a true genius, was my inspiration. I was already a teacher and had gone back for a refresher course. I saw my brilliant but unhappy child in the descriptions of "social" learning disabilitities.
All I was trying to get across earlier is that sometimes there are no words
to communicate-be they "jargon" or otherwise-because BOTH parties need to
listen and respond for communication to succeed.
SUBJECT: Re:SusanS29 -
"APRAXIA Date: 97-05-07 00:48:54 EDT
From: Mars000210
You didn't put me in hot water, I did. It's ok though learn more from my mistakes then ever did from being right :):)
Funny how much good comes from posting here.
Had one child who did awfull in school ( not diagnosed until 11th grade),
but a wonderfull person at her school listened to me and suggested testing.
That changed her life. my other two daughters lives and mine.
Not knowing is far worse then knowing is any day. It's those that don't
< I've met many people in my Graduate courses who became Learing Disability
Specialists because they wanted to learn how to help their own children.>
Now that I'm "out of the woods" with my kids and can have some perspective (ahhhh!), I realize that if the school had not made our life living hell I would never, ever have been forced to learn about my kids' problems and solutions in the depth that I have. What, at the time, was a purely miserable episode in our lives, has provided me (and my kids) with so much benefit, that it some weird ways I'm actually grateful! LOL.
The living hell also motivates one to develope a great sence of humor.
It also helps one realise that anyone can reach their goals. In spite of what anyone else says or does to you. Your greatest strength is your ability to believe in yourself.
I'm trying to be a parent advocate for a neighbor since I have 3 dyslexic children of my own and they are doing quite well. Thought I could help her daughter get special education support.
The problem: I've known the child since 2nd grade, she is now in 6th. Failing every subject. I'm convinced just from knowing her she is LD, perhaps ADD.
I'm having difficulties with interpreting the test results. She was denied services in 2nd grade due to testing-same system and is being denied now because the test results are similar to the 2nd grade tests. According to testing, she does not meet the necessary discrepancy. They claim she is doing about what they expect, grades D to failing. Failing most likely from bad self-image and low self-esteem.
Retests were given in Woodcock Johnson, WISC-III, DTLA-3, Bender Gestait, CREVT, EOWPVT-R, TOPS, Selected Subtests of the Clinical Evaluation of Language Fundamentals-Revised, and Key-Math.
Could you help on the Woodcock Johnson. Questions:
The tests start with #22, Letter Word Certification and end with ? possibly thru #49--(bad photocopy) Written Expression.
Questions: Column W - what does the W stand for under column, we have next to each test description #'s such as, 501, 502, 508, 505, 481, 498, 492, 495, thru 502.
Raw Score: What is the definition of raw score.
RMI - What is it, such as 75/90, 82/90, 68/90, 29/90, etc.. SS=Standard Score and PR-Percentile then there's age equivalency and grade equivalency.
Don't know if they tested for both cognitive and achievement. How can I tell? There are no comparative columns of standard score.
I wish I could interpet the test results for you, but don't understand from the information you gave.
Why not take the tests to a nerophyschologist and have him at least look at the testing that was done and explain it all to the the parents. The testing might not be comphensive enough to find this childs learning problem.
At that time at least they would have a starting point. If the child doesn't quialfy for an IEP ( according to the schools interpertation of the tests scores) why not a 504 plan under OHI. Try using the argument that that she has a nerological deficiet that substantially impaires her ability to learn. This is one way of getting arround the schools numbers rules for quialfing for and IEP. This would at least get this child help. Barb
SUBJECT:
Re: "APRAXIA Date: 97-05-09 12:51:08 EDT
From: TLVAIL
Dear U797- There is a great deal of information on Verbal Apraxia on the speech/language message board. A child can have oral apraxia, verbal apraxia or motor apraixa (limb apraxia) or a combination of all. Basically, it refers to a difficulty in motor planning. The muscles and the brain work fine but the link between the two suffers so the child is unable to execute a "motor plan" for whatever event (speech, writing etc.) the child wants to do. There are many other difficulties associated with apraxia. Read over the material on the speech board and let me know if you have any other questions. Tracy
The "W" scores on the Woodcock are part of the norming information. You look at the difference between the "W" score and the achieved score to determine Standard Scores. What you should really be looking at though are the Standard Scores as these are usually used to determine if the individual being tested is achieving at the levels of an average child in the same grade or age. If I know a student of mine has normal intelligence, I consider Standard Scores below 85 to be areas of weakness. Look for variability in the scores-strengths and weaknesses. STandard Scores that cluster around 100 are usually within the average range.
The Cognitive Battery includes subtests like: Memory for Names, Memory for Words, Incomplete Words, Picture Vocabulary, Cross Out, Analysis-Synthesis... Cluster scores can give results in Auditory Processing, Visual Processing, Processing Speed, etc.
The Achievement Battery uses subtests like: Word Identification, Passage Completion...has a written Language component...and can be combined with the Cognitive Battery to give predicted scores ( I think). We have only the Cognitive Battery so I'm not as familiar any more with the Achievement Battery.
There are other experts on the board who will probably give you more information.
What do you mean when you say the school feels this student is working at expectancy when she is failing classes?
Different states have different interpretations of the discrepancy between actual achievement and expected achievement.
It cannot be that the school considers it appropriate for students to fail. What were the Wisc results? Was IQ reported at normal or near normal levels?
Even if this child's IQ falls in the category of "slow learner", failure is not to be expected.
The student was given the achievement battery only which starts with test #22. Tests 1-21 are part of the cognitive battery.
If you want specific descriptions of the subtests, you can e-mail me and I will send you brief descriptions. In order to properly interpret the testing, you need to know what the individual subtests are designed to measure. For example, the Writing Samples subtest tests the ability to write a semantically and syntactically correct sentence but except for isolated items, it does not take into account spelling or punctuation - just sentence structure and quality of response.
In addition, the WJR- Ach offers an RMI (relative mastery score). It is expressed as x/90. The average student will have 90% success on these types of tasks. This student has x% success.
To determine a significant discrepancy, the standard score on the WJR would be compared to the standard score on the WISC-III.
I will repeat a previous posting of mine. If a parent does not understand a report, they have every right to go to the person who wrote it and ask for an explanation. This explanation should clarify any terms, scores, subtests, skills, etc. It is my opinion that a family could take an advocate along with them for this interpretation session if necessary. It would be a wonderful help to the family if this were to happen. So...my suggestion is talk to the family and get them to arrange a meeting for clarification and see if they want you to come along. If they do, then go. It should make the information clearer to all.
By the way, if the child is failing then perhaps the curriculum she/he is following should somehow be adapted to meet her specific abilities better. Just a thought. ShelleyHL
This is additional info on the testing. Would appreciate other any help:.
Psyco-Education Report:
As measured by the WISC-III, she is currently functioning within the borderline range of cognitive ability. She earned a Full Scale IQ score of 78, which is classified as borderline, a Verbal IQ score of 82, which places her within the low average range, and a Performance IQ score of 79, borderline. She earned a General Ability score below the avg range on the DTLA-3 processing battery, Verbal composite=avg, Attention-Reduced cluster=avg, Attention-Enhanced cluster=low avg., Motor Reduced cluster=low avg. Bender-Gestalt test of visual integration, she earned an age equivalent score of two yrs. below the expected level and an IQ within the avg range.
On WISCIII: Verbal subtests Sta. Score Performance
Subtest Sta. Score
Information 7 Picture Completion
9
Similarities 5 Coding
6
Arithmetic 8 Picture
Arrangement 3
Vocabulary 5 Block Design
9
Comprehension 9 Object Assembly
6
(Digit Span) (9) (Symbol Search)
(13)
(Mazes) ----
Scaled scores in parentheses are included in the calculation of learning indexes but not in the calculation of IQ scores.
Verbal IQ SS=82 %il=12 Verbal Comp Index
SS=81 %ile=10
Performance IQ 79 8 Perceptual Org
Index 82 12
Full Scale IQ 78 7 Freedom from
Distract. 93 32
Processing Speed Index 99 47
The girl is a 12 year old 6th grader. DTLA-3 Results:
Subtest Stand. Score %ile Age
Equiv. Rating
Word Opposites 10 50
11-3 Avg
Design Sequences 7 16
10-0 Below Avg
Sentence Imitation 7 16
7-3 Below Avg
Reversed Letters 8 25
10-0 Avg.
Story Construction 11 63
12-3 Avg
Design Reproduction 6 9
8-9 Below Avg.
Basic Information 6 9
8-9 Below Avg.
Symbolic Relation 9 37
10-0 Avg.
Word Sequences 8 25
9-6 Avg.
Story Sequences 8 25
10-6 Avg.
Picture Fragments 14 91
16-0 Above Avg.
Global Activities
General Metal Ability 89 23 Below Avg.
Optimal 107 68 Avg.
etc..............
Somehow, esp on Woodcock Johnson--(see next post) I feel the scores don't reflect her actual age/grade.
Please remember that the LEAST reliable scores on a standard test are the age equivalencies. Many evaluators don't even report them. Standardized scores are the most reliable scores, especially when looking at a child over time. It looks like the child you're describing is in the slow learner category...below average but certainly not mentally retarded. This, however, is difficulty to determine without knowing the child, how she works, how she approached the tests, etc. I still suggest talking to the evaluator directly.
Now, my opinion...If she is taking college preparatory courses she might fail. What is her school day like? What kinds of courses does she take?
What would you like her to be studying? ShelleyHL
SUBJECT: diagnostician duties
in TX Date: 97-05-25 23:24:55 EDT
From: Kevtuck
I am very interested in knowing whether diagnosticians in your Tx school district attend/conduct annual ARD/IEP meetings. Or are they only required to attend when assessment matters are discussed? Please e-mail you district name along with your answer. Thanks for any input.
This is mainly for California Folks, but anyone please respond. What are you using for the point spread (Standard Score Points) to determine the existance of a significant discrepancy? Argument has gone from 21 to 22.5 in our department but nobody can find any statistical/correlational data that allows for the calculation of that figure.
Many years ago in California, we had tables that gave figures for the WISC (not R or III) , the WRAT (forbid) and the PIAT (not R).
I'd love to exchange ideas with anyone going through the same dilema we are.
I am:
crockerrw@aol.com
or
Bob Crocker
Psychologist, Marysville Joint Unified School District
1919 B Street
Marysville, California
SUBJECT: Cogat tests Date: 97-05-29 13:16:20 EDT
From: Wtree5
Can anyone comment on the use of Cogats as a criteria for admission to gifted programs? Is it generally considered to be a valid measure of an individual's abilities? Is it also a valid measure of an individual's abilities when the individual has an expressive language disability? Thanks!
I am a parent of a child classified SLD, and I would also love to know if there are any tables out there that calculate what score differences are supposed to be in California for eligibility. I do not have access to the information that would allow me to calculate the discrepancy from the education code. At my last IEP, the psychologist said that my son may test out of eligibility when they do his trienniel this fall, so I need to know for myself the eligibility requirements (in case I need to argue).
When I took my Assessment course, we were given the discrepancy figure of 22.5, also. This number represents a deviation and a half above or below average with 100 being the middle of the bell.
how is testing done for a student who does not speak english and who only has a 1st or 2nd grade education in their native country? This child is 13.
SUBJECT:
Need Test Advice Date: 97-05-30 02:09:35 EDT
From: BBW Woman
PLEASE HELP!!!! I am a member of a multi-disciplinary Pupil Appraisal Team. To measure adaptive behavior, we generally give the Vineland Adpative Behavior Scales. The problem come when students have orthopedic or medical conditions which invali Date the Vineland results. For example, I am currently working with a child with spina bifida. She loses points for items such as being toilet trained, standing independently, running smoothly, etc. Fine motor as well as gross motor and daily living skills are involved. Does anyone know of a test of adaptive behavior which has norms for children in wheelchairs and/or with various medical diagnoses? Your help will be appreciated.
According to California state law, a severe discrepancy is demonstrated when there is a computed difference between achievement and aptitude eqaul to or exceeding 1.5 standard deviations (or 23 points) (Articl 3.1, 3030 (j) (4) (A).
If anyone has the manual for the Woodcock-Johnson Reading Mastery Test, I would appreciate it if you could tell me what the manual says regarding the time line for readministering the test. I was told that it should not be readministered within a year. (I'm specifically referring to Form G)
I'm inquiring about the Woodcock Johnson Reading Mastery Test, Form G.
Here is the problem:
My 15 year old daughter has had difficulty throughout her school years with reading/spelling. Since whole language was the ONLY method used, I requested an alternative. Every year I was denied, until this past year. I convinced them to at least TRY a phonics program. They agreed to a 12 week trial. I then requested pre and post testing. In the mean time, I took my daughter to an independent evaluator (anticipating a problem down the road regarding the continuation of phonics). The independent did a pre-test using the WRMT, form G in early February and then a post-test using WRMT, form G in late May. The school is now claiming that ALL of the data is invalid because the independent readministered the test too soon, violating the guidelines of the manual. They claim that it should not be re adminsitered for one year in order to be valid.
The independent knows there is a "companion" Form H to be used for the purpose of pre and post testing, but it relies on comparing the percentiles rather than actual phonemic comparisons. She believed, and I agree, that it was more important to see the qualitative comparisons - word for word, rather than the quantitative comparisons of percentiles.
For instance, in the pre test she got eight words wrong and in the post test none of the original eight mistakes were made. In the pre, she could not read the word spectacular, either by sight or by sounding it out (she had never been taught to sound out words). However, in the post she was able to read the word by breaking it down and sounding it out. Isn't that progress? Would we have known that if she had been given form H, which I'm guessing, does not have include the word, spectacular?
I guess my question is this: Doesn't the information gleened from the testing matter as much, or more, than the numbers indicate? How could there be a "practice effect" if she didn't read the word correctly the first time, was not corrected at that time, nor seen the list of words again until she was retested? Doesn't common sense play into this at all? Of course, the bottom line is this: even in the school's original testing back in October, her decoding/word attack skills were in the 12th percentile, so isn't this all really moot? Is 12 weeks, 2X 49 minute sessions per week really enough time to evaluate whether a program is working?
Any insight would be appreciated. I have a meeting Monday morning. I am assuming that they will NOT be recommending a continuation of the Wilson Method, but I don't know this for sure. Call it a hunch ;-) based upon my past experiences and the fact that the ONLY certified Wilson teacher will not be teaching in September.
WRMT are the initials for the Woodcock Reading Mastery Test, not the Woodcock Johnson-totally different tests. And as you mention, there is a Form G and a Form H on this test. Woodcock Johnson is usually abbreviated by WJ and the name of the subtests.
What I don't understand is how a school can deny a phonics program to a Sp. Ed. student. We use the HBJ Whole Language program at our school, but for most kids this wasn't working and the classroom teachers clamored and got a phonics program to use as well. My principal's philosophy is to meet the child at his level and work from there. Heaven forbid if a teacher comes to a meeting, and says, "well, the child is being taught at fourth grade level, but he is struggling".
Thank you for pointing out my error. Because both of my children have been through MANY tests I sort of blended them together. I did mean the Woodcock Reading Mastery Test. I realize that it is different from the Woodcock-Johnson.
I wish our school system overall and the pricipals in particular, would admit that whole language isn't working by itself. I believe there is merit to the whole language method, but without a foundation in phonics, what good will it do? Our system will not admit that something else is needed. To illustrate this point, let me tell you what the Dir. of Spec. Ed. said about there NOT being a need to teach my 9th grader phonics: "If she can understand the passage from context clues, why does she need to KNOW every word contained in it?"
Of course, you realize that this comment was based upon her evaluation results, of which she tested at a 5th - 6th grade reading level. Naturally, this doesn't hold water when you factor in that she is in the 9th grade and the level of reading difficulty is higher. What happens to her ability to use context clues when she CAN'T read nor DECODE more than 50% of the words in a paragraph at this level? She doesn't comprehend, that's what!
It's all very frustrating. I've often heard that in the lower grades they "learn to read" and the upper grades they "read to learn." Obviously, if you don't teach them to read in the lower grades, they won't be able to "read to learn" in the upper grades.
I'm open to suggestion as to how to deal with a system that would prefer to "blame the child" rather than the instruction.
It's too bad that you are not in my school! I've learned the error of my ways when I popped up with the garbage about using context clues to figuring out new words. Notice I used the word "figure" instead of "sound out", because obviously the student is not sounding out the word-he/she is guessing what it is from the context. Sometimes it works, but as the reading becomes more difficult, it becomes harder to guess!
I'm surprised that your director of Special Ed. interferes with your manner of instruction. But since she does, you might want to show her the article "30 Years of Research: What We Now Know About How Children Learn to Read" Go to (http://www.cftl.org/30years/30years.html). My Sp. Ed. coordinator would never insult us in such a way. She counts on us as being the experts. And my principal really enjoyed reading the article and agreed with every word.
You have to understand that I live in a very small town, less than 10,000 people. We have technically, one elementary school (I say technically because it's actually 3 buildings; two house parallel K-3 and one houses grades 4-5) one middle school and one high school. Total student population is under 1,800.
So regardless of what the latest studies show, this system, which is ranked #1 in the state, is NOT going to admit that whole language isn't working. They especially will not admit it to me, a mere parent, with NO background in education!
I will definately check out the web site you mentioned. I don't believe I can change their minds about the way they instruct ALL students, but perhaps I can alter how they teach MY children.
<So regardless of what the latest studies show, this system, which is ranked #1 in the state, is NOT going to admit that whole language isn't working.
They especially will not admit it to me, a mere parent, with NO background in
education!>
Lisa,
I don't know if you've pulled that article on 30 years of reading research, but it's excellent. BTW, I think there is some solid information now about teaching whole language exclusively as a path to reading-that it is an abyssmal failure as documented by the California public schools. They swtiched over to whole language some time ago, and now realize that their kids haven't learned to read, and have now abandoned the exclusive whole language approach.
I know you'd exposed your daughter to Wilson, but have you been able to find
an Orton-Gillingham person near you? My neice recently had the support of an
Please get the article from the website that is mentioned back a few weeks in this folder about "30 years research on reading". I can't find the web address right now. Anyway reading using context clues, according to this article , is not a good way to learn to read! Here is a quote:
Context is not a Useful Strategy for Word Recognition
Research quite clearly shows that overemphasizing prediction from context for word recognition can be counterproductive, possibly delaying reading acquisition. Stanovich and Stanovich (1995) recently summarized the research findings regarding the predictability of authentic text:
"...It is often incorrectly assumed that predicting upcoming words in sentences is a relatively easy and highly accurate activity. Actually, many different empirical studies have indicated that naturalistic text is not that predictable. Alford (1980) found that for a set of moderately long expository passages of text, subjects needed an average of more than four guesses to correctly anticipate upcoming words in the passage (the method of scoring actually makes this a considerable underestimate). Across a variety of subject populations and texts, a reader's probability of predicting the next word in a passage is usually between .20 and .35 (Aborn, Rubenstein, & Sterling, 1959; Gough, 1983; Miller & Coleman, 1967; Perfetti, Goldman, & Hogaboam, 1979; Rubenstein & Aborn, 1958). Indeed, as Gough (1983) has shown, the figure is highest for function words, and is often quite low for the very words in the passage that carry the most information content." (p. 90)
Stanovich and Stanovich (1995) also summarize the findings regarding the role of context in reading acquisition. Of the three cueing systems frequently mentioned in reading (semantic, syntactic, and graphophonemic cues), the semantic and syntactic cueing systems seem to play a minor role. Recent eye movement research indicates that good readers do not sample the text and predict to recognize words efficiently, but rather see every single letter on the page.
"...the word recognition skills of the good reader are so rapid, automatic, and efficient that the skilled reader need not rely on contextual information. In fact, it is poor readers who guess from context-out of necessity because their decoding skills are so weak." (p. 92)
In the NICHD interventions studies (Foorman, et al., in press; Torgesen et
al., in press) teaching children to use context and prediction as strategies
for word recognition resulted in greater numbers of reading disabilities than
instruction that taught children to use their sound-spelling knowledge as the
primary strategy for word recognition.
SUBJECT: WRMT extra note Date: 97-06-19 21:20:25 EDT
From: Bre5
I think the web site address is actually in the Reading Disabilites folder
-sorry!
SUBJECT: Re:WRMT Date: 97-06-19 22:16:12 EDT
From: Lmazzola
Thanks everyone:
I did print the article, "30 Years.....", but the problem is this: the school doesn't want to hear about it! They "CLAIM" that since they introduce phonics in the 1st and 2nd grade, that they have incorporated enough of it into the whole language process to make a difference. Obviously, if my two children are any example, they are clearly wrong. I might add, I recently found out that there are several families of 9th graders (at least 10 that I know of) that have hired private tutors for their kids. I'm not talking about review and strategies for SAT's etc, I'm talking about "just keeping up". Mind you, there are only 125 kids in the entire 9th grade class.
Ratatat: to answer your question, I had the girls tutored by an O-G certified
tutor and she was excellent, but she charged $50 per hour and I just couldn't
afford to continue with her once I hired the advocate and the lawyer last
year. I'm going to try and find someone else who doesn't charge quite as
much. You'd think that my girls would protest having to to "work" over the
summer, but I think that they could tell that it was helpful and were eager
to go every week.
SUBJECT: Re:WRMT Date: 97-06-20 19:59:51 EDT
From: ShelleyHL
How unfortunate that the money needed to go to an advocate and lawyer instead of providing what sounded like a most positive educational experience for this child.
